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Thread: State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Someone mentioned Flatt finished 6th at Natls and Nagasu 7th and that was the basis for Flatt getting SA....again.
    That doesn't sound right to me.
    What is your reason for fighting for SA for Mirai?

    Somebodies never wanted to skate at SA, like Johnny Weir.

    I don't think putting almost all American top ladies into one GP event, let them compete with each other and lose possible chances of getting more American ladies into GPF, is a good approach of anything. Maybe just because USFSA has more faith in Nagasu than Flatt, so they put Mirai into an oversea's GP instead of staying here competing with Wagner. Mirai has done well in Asia before.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-04-2012 at 08:15 AM.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    What is your reason for fighting for SA for Mirai?

    Somebodies never wanted to skate at SA, like Johnny Weir.

    I don't think putting almost all American top ladies into one GP event, let them compete with each other and lose possible chances of getting more American ladies into GPF, is a good approach of anything. Maybe just because USFSA has more faith in Nagasu than Flatt, so they put Mirai into an oversea's GP instead of staying here competing with Wagner. Mirai has done well in Asia before.
    My thoughts about this are really based on Mirai being ISU's third ranked US Lady and getting passed over for two GP's by three US Lady's with lower rankings.

    Skate America, even with it's low ratings these days is still more visible in USA than all of the other GP's combined - and that would include the GPF.
    The GPF is barely known in USA ......

    Skate America has more TV coverage and to always have Rachael and never Mirai seems to show favoritism.
    This is about the last 5 years. Rachael has been to SA 4 of the last 5 years. Mirai just once.

    The politcally based arguments by mskater and mathman don't impress me even if they make sense in the inward looking world of skating

    Because Mirai could beat Ashley is not a sporting argument but a political argument.

    Giving lower ranked skaters two assignments and Mirai one is not a sporting decision but a political decision.

    I am not against Ashley - and if a few reports we have heard from RD and mskater are true - Ashley will beat Mirai easily this season.

    If Ashley or any skater needs a soft path to the GPF what does that say about the sporting attitude of figure skating?

    If you want to be the best - which Ashley does - then you have to compete against the best.

    Anything less feels more like a pageant than a real sport.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-04-2012 at 09:23 AM.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    My thoughts about this are really based on Mirai being ISU's third ranked US Lady and getting passed over for two GP's by three US Lady's with lower rankings.

    Skate America, even with it's low ratings these days is still more visible in USA than all of the other GP's combined - and that would include the GPF.
    The GPF is barely known in USA ......

    Skate America has more TV coverage and to always have Rachael and never Mirai seems to show favoritism.
    This is about the last 5 years. Rachael has been to SA 4 of the last 5 years. Mirai just once.

    The politcally based arguments by mskater and mathman don't impress me.

    Because Mirai could beat Ashley is not a sporting argument but a political argument.

    Giving lower ranked skaters two assignments and Mirai one is not a sporting decision but a political decision.

    I am not against Ashley - and if a few reports we have heard from RD and mskater are true - Ashley will beat Mirai easily this season.

    If Ashley or any skater needs a soft path to the GPF what does that say about the sporting attitude of figure skating?

    If you want to be the best - which Ashley does - then you have to compete against the best.

    Anything less feels more like a pageant than a real sport
    .
    You are not suggesting that figure skating should be proceeded like a blind fly, are you?

    Every sport needs strategy and uses strategy. To avoid early clashes of some players and teams is used in many other sports. Your argument doesn't stand well.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-04-2012 at 09:29 AM.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    You are not suggesting that figure skating should be proceeded like a blind fly, are you?

    Every sport needs strategy and uses strategy. To a void early clashes of some players and teams is used in many other sports. Your argument doesn't stand well.
    I am looking for a degree of fainess.
    I don't see it here.

    I am familiar with all kinds of sporting strategy. This shuffling skaters around has not made Skate America more successful.

    I think Skate America is more important than Ashley or any skater.

    This season the Men's field is loaded - the Ladies is set up for Ashley with Adelina as her only serious competitor.

    If Ashley wins she would be a "paper tiger" of a champion - or like a pageant champion. Not a real sporting champion since the event has the feeling of being "fixed" before the skaters ever take the ice.

    Sports are booming in America - pageants are dying.

    Which world does figure skating want to belong too?
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-04-2012 at 09:36 AM.

  5. #155
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    Just for a point of reference:

    Last season when they shortened the GP pool here are the U.S. Ladies assignments:
    Alissa Czisny: Skate America, TEB (S1)
    Rachael Flatt: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (S2)
    Mirai Nagasu: Skate Canada, Cup of China (S3)
    Agnes Zawadzki NHK Trophy, Cup of Russia (S4)
    Christina Gao: Cup of China, Cup of Russia (S5)
    Ashley Wagner: Skate Canada, NHK Trophy (S6)
    Joelle Forte: Skate America (S9)
    Caroline Zhang: Skate America (S12)
    Total spots: 14 (8 skaters)

    This season:
    Ashley Wagner: Skate America, TEB (S1)
    Alissa Czisny: NHK (S2)
    Agnes Zawadzki: Rostelcom Cup, NHK Trophy (S3)
    Caroline Zhang: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (S4)
    Christina Gao: Skate America, TEB (S5)
    Rachael Flatt: Skate America (S6)
    Mirai Nagasu Cup of China (S7)
    Gracie Gold: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (J1)
    Total spots: 13 (8 skaters)

    Japan in 2011:
    Mao Asada: NHK, COR (S2)
    Kanako Murakami:Cup of China, TEB (S3)
    Akiko Suzuki: Skate Canada, NHK (S4)
    Shoko Ishikawa: NHK (S9)
    Haruka Imai: Skate America, Cup of Russia (S12)
    Total spots: 9 (5 skaters)
    (Risa Shoji (S5) and Yuki Nishino (S6) competed on the JGP; Miki Ando (S1) did not compete)

    Japan in 2012:
    Mao Asada: Cup of China, NHK (S1)
    Akiko Suzuki: Skate Canada, NHK (S2)
    Kanako Murakami: Skate Canada, Cup of Russia (S3)
    Haruki Imai: Skate America, NHK (S4)
    Miki Ando: Cup of China, TEB (Comeback skater provision)
    Total spots: 10 (5 skaters)

    Russia in 2011:
    Adelina Sotnikova: Cup of China, Cup of Russia (S1)
    Alena Leonova: Skate Canada, NHK, Cup of Russia (S2)
    Elizaveta Tuktamisheva: Skate Canada, TEB (S3)
    Ksenia Mararova: Skate America, Cup of China (S5)
    Sofia Biryukova: Cup of Russia (S6)
    Total spots: 9 (5 skaters) (Julia Lipinitskaia (S4) competed in JGP)

    Russia in 2012:
    Adelina Sotnikova: Skate America, Cup of Russia (S1)
    Julia Lipnitskaia: Cup of China, TEB (S2)
    Alena Leonova: Skate America, Cup of Russia (S3)
    Ksenia Makarova: Skate Canada, NHK (S4)
    Elizaveta Tuktamysheva: Skate Canada, TEB (S6)
    Polina Korobeynikova: Cup of Russia, TEB (S7)
    Sofia Biryukova: Cup of Russia (S9)
    Polina Shelepen: Skate Canada, NHK (S10)
    Total spots: 15 (8 skaters)


    Also for your reference:

    Juniors moving up in 2011: Elizaveta Tuktamisheva (RUS), Adelina Sotnikova (RUS), Kexin Zhang (CHN)
    Juniors moving up in 2012: Kaetlyn Osmond (CAN), Zijun Li (CHN), Julia Lipinitskaia, Polina Korobeynikova (RUS -- she did senior Worlds last year, but did JGP last year), Polina Shelepen (RUS), Gracie Gold (USA)


    Just some food for thought...

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I am looking for a degree of fainess.
    I don't see it here.

    I am familiar with all kinds of sporting strategy. This shuffling skaters around has not made Skate America more successful.

    I think Skate America is more important than Ashley or any skater.

    This season the Men's field is loaded - the Ladies is set up for Ashley with Adelina as her only serious competitor.

    If Ashley wins she would be a "paper tiger" of a champion - or like a pageant champion. Not a real sporting champion since the event has the feeling of being "fixed" before the skaters ever take the ice.

    Sports are booming in America - pageants are dying.

    Which world does figure skating want to belong too?
    This outcry of figure skating dying is pointless when all logical reasons have been discussed and listed again and again in numerous threads.

    I don't see the unfairness here. I don't think putting Daisuke Takahashi and Yuzuru Hanyu in the same NHK Trothy is good for the skaters. It's a sheer waste of resources, and putting unnecessary psychological pressure on the top skaters. Besides, I don't think adding Mirai Nagasu and removing off Flatt in SA could revive and make any difference in SA attendence. You yourself might not even attend it regardless whether Mirai is there or not, I suppose.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-04-2012 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    This outcry of figure skating dying is pointless when all logical reasons have been discussed and listed again and again in numerous threads.

    I don't see the unfairness here. I don't think putting Daisuke Takahashi and Yuzuru Hanyu in the same NHK Trothy is good for the skaters. It's a sheer waste of resources, and putting unnecessary psychological pressure on the top skaters. Besides, I don't think adding Mirai Nagasu and removing off Flatt in SA could revive and make any difference in SA attendence. You yourself might not even attend it regardless whether Mirai is there or not, I suppose.
    I am surprised and disappointed Mirai only got one GP event.
    I would like something more competitive at the Ladies event at SA.

    That's what I am saying.

    ETA: Wow - what a treat for Japanese fans to see Mao and Akiko at NHK as well as Dai and Hanyu!

    I bet NHK will be the talk of Japan with a field like that.

    IMHO - that's the way to do it.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-04-2012 at 10:34 AM.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I am surprised and disappointed Mirai only got one GP event.
    I would like something more competitive at the Ladies event at SA.

    That's what I am saying.

    ETA: Wow - what a treat for Japanese fans to see Mao and Akiko at NHK as well as Dai and Hanyu!

    I bet NHK will be the talk of Japan with a field like that.

    IMHO - that's the way to do it.
    I agree with this. I see no reason not to have several competitive American skaters at Skate America. Let's face it, the Grand Prix is really just a way for skaters to try out their programs and get feedback from the international judges. There is no good reason not to let the home country see several of its skaters at this event--especially since skating is already on a downward trend in America. Mirai is a talented and exciting skater when she is "on." Why not showcase her along with the others?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Wow - what a treat for Japanese fans to see Mao and Akiko at NHK as well as Dai and Hanyu!

    I bet NHK will be the talk of Japan with a field like that.

    IMHO - that's the way to do it.
    I suppose that Japan federation has the deep field so that they can afford it, unlike US. Even if USFSA puts all eggs into the SA basket, I very much doubt it will bring a full house in attendence. There is no star/stars in US ladies. I think Ashley Wagner is vulnerable. USFSA is desperate in finding a star lady skater.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-04-2012 at 11:37 AM.

  10. #160
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    And there you have hit it on the head, BB, as to the strategy of SA selections - desperate for a lady star and protecting one who *could* be that lady star.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I suppose that Japan federation has the deep field so that they can afford it, unlike US. Even if USFSA puts all eggs into the SA basket, I very much doubt it will bring a full house in attendence. There is no star/stars in US ladies. I think Ashley Wagner is vulnerable. USFSA is desparate in finding a star lady skater.
    on contrary they are actually putting Ashley as the star of SA, its just taht the other American ladies competing with her are more of the B class,
    they are spreading the wealth and giving the other left open for a medal like Gracie and Agnes not pitting them with Ashley

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenaj View Post
    I agree with this. I see no reason not to have several competitive American skaters at Skate America. Let's face it, the Grand Prix is really just a way for skaters to try out their programs and get feedback from the international judges. There is no good reason not to let the home country see several of its skaters at this event--especially since skating is already on a downward trend in America. Mirai is a talented and exciting skater when she is "on." Why not showcase her along with the others?
    Thanks - it is nice to see atleast one poster understands what I am talking about here.

    BTW, contrary to what other posters write about my comments - I am not saying Mirai would sell more tickets at SA.

    The truth is it's far too late for the memories she created at the Olympics to have much effect now. US Skating with it's bizarre anti-sport and pro-pageant thinking is solely responsible for that.

    The "strategy" of protecting skaters with the goal of making the GPF is something I totally and completely, absolutely and unconditionallly REJECT.

    I get that for a few skating GEEKS it is part of there entire skating/sport experience.

    I see it much, much differently.

    The Japanese Federation is making it clear the health and well-being of NHK and skating popularity in Japan comes before protecting a skater's chances of making the GPF.

    Skate America typically takes the opposite tact.

    Simple question - where is skating more popular - in Japan or USA

    Why in the world would Japan not want to treat it's fans to a showcase event featuring it's best skaters?
    A no-brainer even if it disappoints a few skating board fans.

    Ultimately, as jenaj stated the popularity and economic well-being of skating is not determined by the GPF.
    It is the whole season that matters (along with other factors).

    The more sporting and exciting the GP events can feel offers skating it's best chance to grow - or in the case of N. America to KEEP what remains of it fan base.

    ETA

    My choices for the American Ladies at SA would have been:

    Ashley
    Gracie
    Mirai or Agnes

    [FONT=Arial Black]What good is it to have a promising young skater like Gracie if she is not seen at SA?[/FONT]

    How does it help raise interest or establish Gracie as a future star if her own federation won;t showcase her at Skate America?

    I would also stick Gracie in a 2nd tough as possible GP event

    Sochi is next season - protecting Gracie makes no sense at all. She is either the real deal or not.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-04-2012 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20 View Post
    on contrary they are actually putting Ashley as the star of SA, its just taht the other American ladies competing with her are more of the B class,
    they are spreading the wealth and giving the other left open for a medal like Gracie and Agnes not pitting them with Ashley
    Anyone who thinks Ashley has been given 'an easy path to the GPF' hasn't properly looked at the line-up for TEB. I think 'spreading the wealth' is a more logical reasoning to not have two top US skaters in SA. I don't necessarily agree with that, but Skate Canada has been a lot worse in 'protecting their possible champion', the field at SC was watered down several seasons. Besides, withrawals and uncharacteristically bad/good skates from skaters make it so that predicting the 'hard' and 'easy' events is nearly impossible.

    But yes, on paper, Ashley is a clear favourite to wint he SA title. I really hope she does

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Simple question - where is skating more popular - in Japan or USA
    You made it sounds like an "egg first or chicken first" question. It's actually quite simple. You have to have a star first before you have the possibilies of considering the prosperity of the sport in your country. In Japan's case, they have not only one star, but also many world class stars. They will have a full house audience even if they take off a couple of their top skater names from the list at NHK.

    On the other hand, even if you put all top American men and all top American ladies in SA, it won't bring a full house. Do average Americans love and care to see more world class foriegn skaters compete and win on their soil? It's the most important thing for USFSA to help to make a star for US. I don't think the average Americans care who they beat and how they beat their competitors. As long as their own country wins, they are happy. The more you win, the more your star status will be firm. And the more fans you will bring.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    [FONT=Arial Black]What good is it to have a promising young skater like Gracie if she is not seen at SA?[/FONT]

    How does it help raise interest or establish Gracie as a future star if her own federation won;t showcase her at Skate America?
    Gracie is not a star yet. If she won the Nationals, I think she'll be put into SA.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-04-2012 at 12:45 PM.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post

    Gracie is not a star yet. If she won the Nationals, I think she'll be put into SA.
    If Gracie medaled or won at SA and then did well at Natls she could become a "star" of sorts. Or atleast have a chance....

    If Americans don't get a chance to see her how can she become a "star."

    Can you explain that - or anything you write?

    How about some deeper thinking and more honest thoughts - as opposed to just disagreeing with me for the heck of it
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-04-2012 at 12:58 PM.

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