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Thread: State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season

  1. #346
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    Can skaters tell if they under-rotate a jump? I would think they could feel themselves completing rotations on the ice, so even if it isn't obvious to us without slow-motion replay, they would know it and be prepared for a lower score. Mirai seemed delighted after her long program ended and seemed surprised and disappointed by the results. Kimmie Meissner had a similar reaction at the Cup of Russia during one of her swan song skates - ecstatic after the skate and shocked by the low scores. Min Jong Kwak seemed absolutely flabbergasted after she didn't qualify out of the short program during 2012 Worlds due to under-rotations and downgrades.

  2. #347
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    Christina Gao could be the new Susan Lucci - it might be hard for to get to the top of the podium. What I am wondering is it realistic to expect Czisny to return to form and how much should we trust the lady who really crashed badly to world's to the point even Canada beat her and Canada at the time wasn't putting much of a fight. When is enough is enough = Czisyn has had all the tools to medal or even win worlds but has fallen - well she has fallen (LOL). She was a human Zamboni machine on steroids last year. I hope she hasn't lost her confidence. Certainly after last year Zhang has the potential to sneak on the podium. ]

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Can skaters tell if they under-rotate a jump? I would think they could feel themselves completing rotations on the ice, so even if it isn't obvious to us without slow-motion replay, they would know it and be prepared for a lower score.
    I would think so. The UR looks like it would put a lot of torque on the leg and ankle. But maybe some skaters get so used to that feeling that they no longer notice it. Perhaps the surprise comes from the significant difference between < and <<, which I would think might be harder to tell if you're 50% UR vs 51% UR.

  4. #349
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Can skaters tell if they under-rotate a jump? I would think they could feel themselves completing rotations on the ice, so even if it isn't obvious to us without slow-motion replay, they would know it and be prepared for a lower score. Mirai seemed delighted after her long program ended and seemed surprised and disappointed by the results. Kimmie Meissner had a similar reaction at the Cup of Russia during one of her swan song skates - ecstatic after the skate and shocked by the low scores. Min Jong Kwak seemed absolutely flabbergasted after she didn't qualify out of the short program during 2012 Worlds due to under-rotations and downgrades.
    It used to be OK to underrotate your jumps, flutz, and lip. Early on, skaters looked delighted because they didn't fall, and thought what they had done was good enough. Even they didn't know if they were just under 1/2 rotation underrotated or just over. As the callers became increasingly good at calling URs, flutzes and lips, and as skaters became more aware of what it felt like when they were going to be called for some error, it still was in the skater's interest to appear delighted, even if the skater knew they were a little short of rotation, in hopes the callers and judges would be impressed by their (possibly assumed) elation and give them the benefit of the doubt.

  5. #350
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I thought Mirai did pretty well at Cup of China. She is on track to contend for the silver medal at U.S. Nationals, IMHO.
    Not unless she cleans up her jumps. By this, I mean, they have to be unequivocably rotated beyond any shadow of a doubt because she has gotten SOOOO many < and << calls over the last several years that anything she puts on the ice is going to be scrutinized with a microscope. It's your good ol' reputation scoring!
    Last edited by mskater93; 11-06-2012 at 08:43 AM.

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Not unless she cleans up her jumps. By this, I mean, they have to be unequivocably rotated beyond any shadow of a doubt because she has gotten SOOOO many < and << calls over the last several years that anything she puts on the ice is going to be scrutinized with a microscope. It's your good ol' reputation scoring!
    Well... she is actually underrotating the jumps so I don't know if I'd call that reputation scoring.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Well... she is actually underrotating the jumps so I don't know if I'd call that reputation scoring.
    I'd say it's both. I think some of the jumps were borderline and for other skaters the judges may have given the benefit of the doubt.

    That said, that slight leg wrap is a bit of a concern. As I said, I really think it clouds the landings.

    Anyway, we shall see at nationals, won't we? If she does get rid of those URs and DGs then she will score well.

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    Mirai has been dinged for URs for years and there's never been any real improvement. If anything, the URs are getting worse. In the CoC FS, she got 3 URs and 2 DGs. That is really bad!

    I doubt if the Nationals callers will cut her much slack, especially if the other top skaters are fully rotating their jumps. The US has a real shot at getting back 3 ladies slots for Sochi. It doesn't make much sense to risk giving one of the two 2013 spots to a skater who gets credit for only one or two triples.

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Mirai has been dinged for URs for years and there's never been any real improvement. If anything, the URs are getting worse. In the CoC FS, she got 3 URs and 2 DGs. That is really bad!

    I doubt if the Nationals callers will cut her much slack, especially if the other top skaters are fully rotating their jumps. The US has a real shot at getting back 3 ladies slots for Sochi. It doesn't make much sense to risk giving one of the two 2013 spots to a skater who gets credit for only one or two triples.
    Yes, it is going to be interesting at Nationals.They would most probably keep a skater with let's say 3 clean triple jumps before a Mirai skate with 6 landed triples but with UR calls.It is frustrating like at COC when even the commentators do not see the UR's and mainly seemed rather impressed by her skate..
    Of course, judging needs to be fair and clean jumps should be rewared.It is just difficult to be a skatingfan sometimes

  10. #355
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Even with the URs, I thought Mirai looked a lot better than she's looked in a long time. The program didn't sparkle a la Carmen 2010, but she performed it well and didn't look like a zombie while doing it, which is how she looked every time last year. Her speed and flow were good and I think the improvements to her attitude are visible in her skating now.

    Mirai's problem is that leg wrap. It's not like Yukari Nakano's wrap where she learned how to jump like that so that's all she knows...this is a recent development in Mirai's skating. It's not a matter of speed or height because she gets nice speed and height in her jumps. I don't even think it's that she's lost the ability to rotate like Kimmie did...it's her technique right now. She's not getting her ankles together like she used to and it's causing her rotation problems. I don't know if her new coaches are technical coaches but it's obvious Mirai needs a technician to help her tighten up her air position.

    This problem isn't good but, thankfully, it's a problem that can be fixed. I'm sure her coaches see it, so now it's time to fix it. I think it's something that can be improved by nationals. Even with all of those UR/DG calls, Mirai still scored 103 which is a good sign. If she'd rotated most of those triples her score would have been competitive with both Julia and Mao's scores.

    I'm not ready to give up on Mirai yet. If she'd come out and skated the same way she skated last season, I wouldn't bother with cheering her on...but she's fighting. You can see it. It's not a Rachael situation where her skills have regressed so much she's no longer competitive or her talent wasn't that remarkable to begin with. Mirai is only 19 and she's far too talented for someone to suggest she retire after this season, especially when it's obvious she's trying to be better...

  11. #356
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Well... she is actually underrotating the jumps so I don't know if I'd call that reputation scoring.
    I mean she's more likely to have things reviewed than others because she has a reputation for UR and DG and so anything borderline will likely not go her way. Besides, so many people on this board like to harp on and on about "reputation scoring" I had to get that little dig in.

  12. #357
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    Reputation scoring has more to do with PCS scores than technical calls. The technical team calls it as they see it, often in replay. Mirai has a habit of 'hooking' her jump landings which will almost always result in a UR review.

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    Christina Gao could be the new Susan Lucci - it might be hard for to get to the top of the podium. What I am wondering is it realistic to expect Czisny to return to form and how much should we trust the lady who really crashed badly to world's to the point even Canada beat her and Canada at the time wasn't putting much of a fight. When is enough is enough = Czisyn has had all the tools to medal or even win worlds but has fallen - well she has fallen (LOL). She was a human Zamboni machine on steroids last year. I hope she hasn't lost her confidence. Certainly after last year Zhang has the potential to sneak on the podium. ]
    Christina's goal is just to get on the podium, which is certainly doable--particularly since Nationals has the pewter!

    I'm not expecting anything of Czisny. First, given the seriousness of her injury and the recovery period, I think she'll do poorly, and she won't be saved by PCS. I think her placement will be like what it was at 2010 Nationals.

    I don't think any amount of confidence will help her. Her jumps have never been great; she doesn't get enough height and/or distance and doesn't rotate quickly enough to compensate, so she always gets UR/DG and/or falls due to lack of rotation. Even in her best performances, she usually always had at least one UR or fall (and was lucky to not get more).

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Christina's goal is just to get on the podium, which is certainly doable--particularly since Nationals has the pewter!

    I'm not expecting anything of Czisny. First, given the seriousness of her injury and the recovery period, I think she'll do poorly, and she won't be saved by PCS. I think her placement will be like what it was at 2010 Nationals.

    I don't think any amount of confidence will help her. Her jumps have never been great; she doesn't get enough height and/or distance and doesn't rotate quickly enough to compensate, so she always gets UR/DG and/or falls due to lack of rotation. Even in her best performances, she usually always had at least one UR or fall (and was lucky to not get more).
    The thing is that Czisny had a decent shot up until her injury. I'm not expecting much from her at NHK with her summer leg surgery, and I doubt that she'll be fully recovered and ready to fight onto the podium by January. I won't go so far as to say her career is over, but for this season, we can assume with reasonable certainty that she'll be giving it a rest.

    Pewter is definitely doable for Gao, primarily since the US ladies' strength is concentrated in a handful of skaters. She and Nagasu may even make a fight for the bronze, but I don't see Christina getting any higher than third place. Wagner, the defending champion, will be first if she is consistent. Gracie Gold and Mirai Nagasu I expect in second and third, though I'm not sure which will be which. Unless Zhang or Agnes can make a serious bid for the podium (doubtful), it seems that we have our Nats medalists already.

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Can skaters tell if they under-rotate a jump? I would think they could feel themselves completing rotations on the ice, so even if it isn't obvious to us without slow-motion replay, they would know it and be prepared for a lower score. Mirai seemed delighted after her long program ended and seemed surprised and disappointed by the results. Kimmie Meissner had a similar reaction at the Cup of Russia during one of her swan song skates - ecstatic after the skate and shocked by the low scores. Min Jong Kwak seemed absolutely flabbergasted after she didn't qualify out of the short program during 2012 Worlds due to under-rotations and downgrades.
    I'm sure that they would know of a downgrade, and reasonably certain about an under-rotation. The landing looks awkward and strained, and they might know by muscle memory that it doesn't feel quite right. Still, I suppose that even if they did know, they'd have to erase their memory and continue with the program.

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