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Thread: State of American Ladies: 2012-13 Season

  1. #106
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Okay.
    USFS has no power at all to give a GP second event to anyone, except at Skate America. The only events to which they can Assign skaters are Senior B's & such, Skate America (3 slots), 4CCs & Worlds. And they can negotiate with other federations to get them to take one of our skaters for their host pick. But they can't force them to take any skater.

    Now let's look at Mirai's situation. She finished 7th at US Nationals, and was assigned 1st alternate to Worlds last year. She didn't make the GPF. She did get a medal at CoC (silver) last year.

    .
    Mirai was one of three US Ladies along with Ashley and Alissa to win a senior Intl ISU event last season. Mirai won Nebelhorn, and also silver at CoC.
    The season before she medaled at 4CC and Natls - also at a GP....was it TEB?

    How is Mirai "lucky" to have skaters with less success at senior ISU events be given two GP assignments to her one?

    Whatever you think - your argument of "favortism" for Mirai feels very weak to me.

    You mentioned Rachael - has she ever won a senior ISU event? Has she medaled at 4CC in the last two seasons? Have her Intl scores been higher than Mirai? Have Christina or Agnes been more successful at senior ISU events for that matter?

    Your logic might find them superior to Mirai - mine, looking at the records and Intl results sees it a bit differently.

    I could see your point if Mirai was 24....but she is just 19. How old is Christina? Same age? Agnes is 18 and Gracie is 17......Mirai finished 4th at the Olympics and won the Worlds SP when she was 16.

    BTW, Brightphoton's post #105 sort of debunks several of your points.....rules are rules - and then there is the reality of what happens when US Skating picks their favorites.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-02-2012 at 06:54 PM.

  2. #107
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    brightphoton actually reinforced my point-Mirai, like Alissa, is of the sort that USFS bends the rules for, or, rather, has the rules set up to be sure favorites, like Mirai, are at Nationals. In other words, they are not discriminating against her, they are discriminating FOR her.

    You, OTOH, are wondering why she isn't at Skate America--and it's because she needs to be at CoC & Finlandia to take advantage of the rule bends they are giving her. To do Skate America for her, they would have to change when her regionals & sectionals are, and sectionals particularly are all at the same time, give or take a day one way or another.

    Indeed USFS has plenty of practice bending rules for people who do badly at US nationals that they want to favor, because of Alissa. People they don't like, (as say Tonya Harding back when she finished 7th at US Nationals) had to go to regionals & sectionals.

    Mirai doesn't.

    That would be the difference.

  3. #108
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    USFS assigns no one to GP events except SA which is reserved for the US Champion and two skaters who the US Champion *should* be able to beat (ie, not a real challenger and based on what you all seem to think who are arguing that USFS is "against Mirai" then they *shouldn't* pick her as she would challenge Ashley at SA, so your logic is circular and/or flawed). Mirai was guaranteed 1 GP event based on her scores from last year, which she got. She tanked at Nationals last year (7th is pretty awful for someone with "all that talent") and has not been able to withstand pressure in many of her international outings (4th at the Olympics with no pressure on her and then she completely blew her LP at Worlds when she was in 1st after the SP, skated poorly and got no credit for a SPIN of all things at the following Nationals right after Alissa pretty much blew the doors off her program to keep herself off the World team, a terrible skate at Skate Canada to start last season's GP when she was trying to prove she was focused and ready...).

    FWIW, Gracie has to go to (Upper Great Lakes) Regionals before her international assignments and has to finish in the top 4 there in order to move on to Nationals (one of her GPs is within a week of Midwestern Sectionals which gives her a bye through Sectionals), so how are the assignments USFS gave (Finlandia, which they CAN give) Mirai NOT a kind of help (especially having watched her skate from Glacier Falls which was less than stellar and showed she had A LOT of work to do to be competitive this year)?

    I suspect there is an understanding that if Alissa withdraws from NHK that she will be replaced by Mirai and that the expectation from USFS and the JSF is that the likelihood is pretty high.

    Personally, Mirai has been disappointing in that she has much potential and CAN hit, but rarely has and has often done herself in.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    USFS assigns no one to GP events except SA which is reserved for the US Champion and two skaters who the US Champion *should* be able to beat (ie, not a real challenger and based on what you all seem to think who are arguing that USFS is "against Mirai" then they *shouldn't* pick her as she would challenge Ashley at SA, so your logic is circular and/or flawed). Mirai was guaranteed 1 GP event based on her scores from last year, which she got. She tanked at Nationals last year (7th is pretty awful for someone with "all that talent") and has not been able to withstand pressure in many of her international outings (4th at the Olympics with no pressure on her and then she completely blew her LP at Worlds when she was in 1st after the SP, skated poorly and got no credit for a SPIN of all things at the following Nationals right after Alissa pretty much blew the doors off her program to keep herself off the World team, a terrible skate at Skate Canada to start last season's GP when she was trying to prove she was focused and ready...).

    FWIW, Gracie has to go to (Upper Great Lakes) Regionals before her international assignments and has to finish in the top 4 there in order to move on to Nationals (one of her GPs is within a week of Midwestern Sectionals which gives her a bye through Sectionals), so how are the assignments USFS gave (Finlandia, which they CAN give) Mirai NOT a kind of help (especially having watched her skate from Glacier Falls which was less than stellar and showed she had A LOT of work to do to be competitive this year)?

    I suspect there is an understanding that if Alissa withdraws from NHK that she will be replaced by Mirai and that the expectation from USFS and the JSF is that the likelihood is pretty high.

    Personally, Mirai has been disappointing in that she has much potential and CAN hit, but rarely has and has often done herself in.
    Sorry that sounds like a Gracie fan post.
    When Gracie was not good enough to get out of sectionals Mirai was already a Natl champion.

    Mirai had no pressure at the Olympics? How in the world can you make such a careless and uninformed remark?

    Do you know Mirai personally? Do you know what Frank's feelings and expectations were? Of course you do not!

    In case you slept through the Ladies skating at Vancouver, the final group laid down the best skating in Olympic history.

    Mirai only had to follow perhaps the most emotional skate from Joannie in Olympic history. That's got to easy - nothing to it

    No pressure you say? Do you say that from your own Olympic skating experience

    Geez, I can't believe what you just wrote.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-02-2012 at 06:53 PM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Sorry that sounds like a Gracie fan post.
    When Gracie was not good enough to get out of regionals Mirai was already a Natl champion.

    Mirai had no pressure at the Olympics? How in the world can you make such a careless and uninformed remark?

    Do you know Mirai personally? Do you know what Frank's feelings and expectations were? Of course you do not!

    In case you slept through the Ladies skating at Vancouver, the final group laid down the best skating in Olympic history.

    Mirai only had to follow perhaps the most emotional skate from Joannie in Olympic history. That's got to easy - nothing to it

    No pressure you say? Do you say that from your own Olympic skating experience

    Geez, I can't believe what you just wrote.
    I think what Mskater93 is saying that Mirai had no pressure placed on her, not that she didn't feel any pressure personally. And I don't think that's a stretch to say. All eyes internationally were on Mao vs. Yuna and to some extent Joannie as the hometown favorite. And from the U.S. team perspective, all eyes were on the national champion, Rachael. I think everyone knew Mirai had enormous talent and could potentially do well, but I don't think anyone expected her to get as close as she did to the podium.

    There is a perception among fans that Mirai does well when there isn't some expectation placed on her. How many times on this board have people joked that they hoped Mirai would be second or third after the SP because of her past history to do poorly after placing first? I will point out that there is a key exception to this -- she was first after the SP at 2010 Nationals and she followed that with a good performance in the FS.

    Also, Gracie didn't qualify because of placing 5th in sectionals, not regionals, in 2011.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    Indeed USFS has plenty of practice bending rules for people who do badly at US nationals that they want to favor, because of Alissa. People they don't like, (as say Tonya Harding back when she finished 7th at US Nationals) had to go to regionals & sectionals.

    Mirai doesn't.

    That would be the difference.
    Slightly OT, but yes, if USFSA does not like you, they won't bend the rules for you. Tonya actually finished 4th at Nationals that year, with a better skate than 2nd and 3rd. And they made her go to Regionals (but she got out of it by saying she had death threats).

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I think what Mskater93 is saying that Mirai had no pressure placed on her, not that she didn't feel any pressure personally. And I don't think that's a stretch to say. All eyes internationally were on Mao vs. Yuna and to some extent Joannie as the hometown favorite. And from the U.S. team perspective, all eyes were on the national champion, Rachael. I think everyone knew Mirai had enormous talent and could potentially do well, but I don't think anyone expected her to get as close as she did to the podium.

    There is a perception among fans that Mirai does well when there isn't some expectation placed on her. How many times on this board have people joked that they hoped Mirai would be second or third after the SP because of her past history to do poorly after placing first? I will point out that there is a key exception to this -- she was first after the SP at 2010 Nationals and she followed that with a good performance in the FS.

    Also, Gracie didn't qualify because of placing 5th in sectionals, not regionals, in 2011.
    My perceptions were different than yours. My eyes were not on Rachael but Mirai in Vancouver.

    If we are talking about problems with skaters under performing then let's be half-way fair. It is true Mirai bombed her LP at 2010 Worlds. She finished 7th.

    I have also seen Ashley bomb at Worlds but not finish 7th.

    I have seen Alissa bomb at worlds and not finish 7th.

    I have seen Rachael bomb at worlds and not finish 7th.

    Are you seeing a pattern here? It feels very odd to get on Mirai for coming in 7th when our other girls have done considerably WORSE.

    And more than once, no

  8. #113
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    Can someone explain how the USFSA is "bending the rules?" Don't the rules say that you are exempt from sectionals and regionals if you have a conflicting international assignment?

    As for "favoring" the top guns in giving out these assignments, doesn't this work mainly to the advantage of the lesser known challengers at sectionals and regionals, so they don't have to go up against former champions to have a shot at making nationals?
    Last edited by Mathman; 10-02-2012 at 06:47 PM.

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Can someone explain how the USFSA is "bending the rules?" Don't the rules say that you are exempt from sectionals and regionals if you have a conflicting international assignment?

    As for "favoring" the top guns in giving out these assignments, doesn't this work mainly to the advantage of the lesser known challengers at sectionals and regionals, so they don't have to go up against former champions to have a shot at making nationals?
    I think the argument made here is that USFSA is out to screw Mirai because she has not received a second GP and people are countering that argument by saying that current USFSA assignments actually favor Mirai, not the opposite.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Can someone explain how the USFSA is "bending the rules?" Don't the rules say that you are exempt from sectionals and regionals if you have a conflicting international assignment?

    As for "favoring" the top guns in giving out these assignments, doesn't this work mainly to the advantage of the lesser known challengers at sectionals and regionals, so they don't have to go up against former champions to have a shot at making nationals?
    I think it is just an attempt to defend US Skating.

    I was hoping for a reasonable explanation of why Agnes and Christina got two GP's and Mirai only one.

    I pointed out that Mirai won a Gold medal at a senior ISU Intl event last season and a GP silver.
    Did Agnes or Christina do as well? Which of these skaters has the higher ISU Intl ranking?

    It's one thing when a Natl team is being picked but the GP assignments always felt a little different to me.

    I remember reading 10 pages of dissent here when Sasha after being gone for three years was given 2 GP's back in the fall of '09.
    I forget what the conclsuion was but anyone who says "US Skating" can't do anything about this is living on a different planet.

    Federations trade and wheel and deal all the time. We just read about the possibilty of Japanese skaters being moved from CoC.
    Hello....Mira is a Japanese-American skater and if the situation were to get worse it would make US Skating look worse than words I can write here to still send her to CoC.

    Anyway, I categorically reject the idea that Mirai has been "favored" by US Skating. If anything I think the opposite is closer to the truth.

    Perhaps as was suggested a backroom deal has already been worked out to send Mirai to NHK if Alissa isn't ready.

    Talk about a prime example of wheeling and dealing.......
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-02-2012 at 08:24 PM.

  11. #116
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    It does seem strange that all the other federations, except China, passed on Mirai when it came to inviting skaters for their big shindigs.

    The ISU ranking (based on last season plus the season before factored at 80%) goes Alissa, Ashley and Mirai, followed by Agnes, Caroline Z, Christina Gao, Rachael, Vanessa Lam, and Gracie Gold.

    The personal best list for active U.S. skaters is topped by Ashley, Mirai, Rachael, and Alissa, in that order.

    Records aside, Mirai (when she's on) is a charismatic crowd pleaser. Seems like someone would think she was a worthy addition to their roster.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Could be lots of reasons for Rachael's low score.
    She could have just been coming off vacation and wanted to get back on the ice at a low profile summer event.

    Maybe she was trying out a new program and left out some of the more difficult elements.
    I don't see much comparison to a summer club event and an ISU Intl senior event.

    I haven't seen Caroline's skates from Nebelhorn and don't feel any need to - just hope she does better next time.

    Flatt attended school all summer, as per her tweets.

    I think back to the day of Hamill, Fleming, et al....when they competed just a few times a year, and not under the microsope of the
    "adoring" public, cough-cough....uber skating fans...when they could put programs out when they were still learning them, and had the
    chance to work thru rough choreography before they were openly criticized on the internet. So much for years gone by.....

  13. #118
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    When the USFSA wants to help out struggling top senior skaters, they help out with a place at Skate America, not some senior B event like Finlandia or Nebelhorn.

    Usually when a top senior skater doesn't do too well at a Nationals, they can usually fall back on their international ranking for 2 GPs, getting them a nationals bye. Flatt, Czisny and Caroline have all had their dark years, and had their international points "run out." US was more than ready to give out a Skate America during hard times, although they've been more generous with some than others. Even Caroline Zhang was eventually granted a spot at SA.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-03-2012 at 01:23 PM.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It does seem strange that all the other federations, except China, passed on Mirai when it came to inviting skaters for their big shindigs.

    The ISU ranking (based on last season plus the season before factored at 80%) goes Alissa, Ashley and Mirai, followed by Agnes, Caroline Z, Christina Gao, Rachael, Vanessa Lam, and Gracie Gold.

    The personal best list for active U.S. skaters is topped by Ashley, Mirai, Rachael, and Alissa, in that order.

    Records aside, Mirai (when she's on) is a charismatic crowd pleaser. Seems like someone would think she was a worthy addition to their roster.
    It makes me wonder after watching this again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igZAm...eature=related

    The EuroSport team called it the second best LP at Vancouver and I agree. I think it is one of the greatest LP's ever skated by an American Lady on Olympic Ice.

    Where is this rush to write off Mirai coming from?

    If that had happened with Ashley at 19 ........ just thinking about that should wake a few people up.

    What about Carolina Kostner? Or Akiko? I guess some Gracie fans would like Mirai and Alissa to retire, or any skater they see as a threat to Gracie.
    After watching Gracie making mistakes at her most recent events I can see she needs more time and seasoning to challenge the top skaters in the world.

    That's fine and the way it should be.

    The thing is a high degree of talent is needed to succeed at the highest levels in skating. If some think it is a sprint under this scoring system they would be wrong. Sure consistency matters - but so does the abilty to skate brilliantly at times matter.

    As to Agnes, Christina and Gracie getting two GP's ahead of Mirai - it seems bizarre to me. Nothing they have ever shown can match Mirai's best.

    Potential is one thing - but laying down some great skates is something different. Mirai has done it - and hoping someday Agnes, Christina and Gracie will do it too.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    It makes me wonder after watching this again:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igZAm...eature=related

    The EuroSport team called it the second best LP at Vancouver and I agree. I think it is one of the greatest LP's ever skated by an American Lady on Olympic Ice.

    Where is this rush to write off Mirai coming from?

    If that had happened with Ashley at 19 ........ just thinking about that should wake a few people up.

    What about Carolina Kostner? Or Akiko? I guess some Gracie fans would like Mirai and Alissa to retire, or any skater they see as a threat to Gracie.
    After watching Gracie making mistakes at her most recent events I can see she needs more time and seasoning to challenge the top skaters in the world.

    That's fine and the way it should be.

    The thing is a high degree of talent is needed to succeed at the highest levels in skating. If some think it is a sprint under this scoring system they would be wrong. Sure consistency matters - but so does the abilty to skate brilliantly at times matter.

    As to Agnes, Christina and Gracie getting two GP's ahead of Mirai - it seems bizarre to me. Nothing they have ever shown can match Mirai's best.

    Potential is one thing - but laying down some great skates is something different. Mirai has done it - and hoping someday Agnes, Christina and Gracie will do it too.
    I completely agree with what you said here!

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