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Thread: Two technical questions (scoring & under-rotated jumps)

  1. #1
    Rinkside
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    Two technical questions (scoring & under-rotated jumps)

    Hello:

    I did a little search, and unfortunately my keywords tend to appear a LOT, so it was difficult to find.

    Two questions:

    1) The scoring system randomly discards 2 judges' scores, and then of the remaining 7 scores, drops high and low, to leave you with 5 scores. My question: does the computer discard THE SAME judges scores for every skater? In other words, is it the same two judges whose scores are being dropped for the entire competition? For instance, the computer chooses the USA and the UK to be dropped. Is that just for one skater and then it switches randomly again? Is it for the entire, say, SP? Or does it drop the same two judges randomly for the SP and the FS (meaning their scores NEVER count...obviously they wouldn't know it though).

    2) Clean jumps vs. Under-rotated jumps vs. downgraded jumps: can someone PLEASE explain, or point me to the right link? If you envision a skater's "turns" as a "circle" over the ice, what is a clean jump? My understanding was that if it's at the quarter-turn (90 degrees or a RIGHT ANGLE) from being exactly backward, then it's a clean jump. Is that correct?

    If that's so, I don't understand how to differentiate a UR jump vs. a DOWNGRADE. And how they're scored. :-(

    Thanks in advance! I tried to find the answers but they're not very clear on the Internet.

  2. #2
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    1- No, they randomly get rid of two every time, I believe not just the same two judges. Not 100% on that though.

    2- A UR or < jump, is when the jump is 91-180 degrees off rotation (though tech callers automatically seem to call 180 degrees of as DG) but a downgrade is << when it's over 180 degrees short on rotation. A UR jump has 30% of its base value removed and is likely to receive light -GOE. If a jump is downgraded (<<) it is only worth the value of the jump with on less rotation but it also gets heavy -GOE.

    For example here are the base values of a triple lutz (3Lz):

    3Lz- 6.00
    3Lz< 4.20
    3Lz<< 2.10 (value of a double lutz)

    Then GOE would be factored in.

  3. #3
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    No scores are randomly dropped. There are nine judges on the panel. Highest and lowest for each element and component score are discarded,and the remaining seven are averaged.

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    What about combo jumps? If the base value of combo is simply the sum of 2 separate jumps, where do they reward skaters for doing more combos? (in GOE? or in PCS?)

  5. #5
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollerblade View Post
    What about combo jumps? If the base value of combo is simply the sum of 2 separate jumps, where do they reward skaters for doing more combos? (in GOE? or in PCS?)
    Well you're allowed three combinations in the free. And the more you include, the more jumps you have in your program, thus adding to your base value. One can be a three jump combination which adds even more to your base value.

  6. #6
    Tripping on the Podium sowcow's Avatar
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    Jump deductions: acceptable vs. under-rotated vs. downgraded

    Jumps and/or throw jumps (pairs) may lack intended rotation, and therefore be partially completing on the ice itself (either on the take-off, or more usually on the landing). It is the responsibility of the Technical Panel to determine how much of the intended rotation was not completed in the air (but rather on-ice). The degree to which the rotation is completed on the ice determines whether a deduction is warranted; and the severity that deduction:

    A jump (or throw jump) is considered "acceptable" if the missing rotation is less than a ¼ revolution:

    • The jump will receive the full base value as identified in scale of values (SOV) chart.
    • Grade of Execution (GOE) values (at the discretion of the judges) are applied as normal.


    A jump (or throw jump) is considered as "under-rotated" if the missing rotation is more than ¼, but less than ½ revolution:

    • The Technical Panel will notify the judges that the jump was under-rotated; and the jump will be identified as such in the protocols with a "<" symbol after the element code.
    • The intended jump will receive a reduced base value (70%) rounded to one decimal place (e.g. if the base value of a jump is 6.0, then the value of that jump if under-rotated is 4.2).
    • The GOE values applied to the under-rotated jump will be the same as if for the intended jump.


    A jump (or throw jump) is considered a "downgraded" jump if the missing rotation is ½ revolution or more:

    • The Technical Panel will notify the judges that the jump is considered a "downgraded" jump; and the jump will be identified as such in the protocols with a "<<" symbol after the element code.
    • The downgraded jump will be evaluated using the scale of values (SOV) chart, and the base value adjusted accordingly (e.g. a downgraded triple jump will be assigned a base value equal to the value of the corresponding double).


    Additional Considerations:


    • Both under-rotated and downgraded jumps will count as the intended jump in the application of 'Well Balanced Program' regulations.
    • Twist lifts (pairs) that lack the intended rotation on the landing can also be downgraded if the missing rotation is ½ revolution or more.




    Also, here is a short video which shows terminals used by the Technical Panel & Judges to view slow-mo replays of the various elements the skater completed during their routine. Using this technology, the Technical Panel determines and assigns the base-value and/or deduction for each element (e.g. for jumps: acceptable, under-rotated or downgraded), while separately, the judges assign their corresponding GOE mark for each element. The video shows the judges version of the terminal (...notice that across the bottom of the screen, you can see the range of GOE marks the judge must assign for the element currently being displayed).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxqLjXRSER0


    Cheers,
    Steve
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  7. #7
    Tripping on the Podium sowcow's Avatar
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    ...and here's another short clip showing the judging terminals "in action" at the 2010 Winter Olympics:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPYnc9vHGyc

  8. #8
    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by sowcow View Post
    .
    ...and here's another short clip showing the judging terminals "in action" at the 2010 Winter Olympics:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPYnc9vHGyc
    Thank you! So to be totally clear, a downgraded jump, missing +1/2 revolution, the skater's blade is touching down on the ice when the skater is essentially forward or more, correct? For example, you're doing a triple Lutz, and you are almost 2 and 1/2 revolutions in the air, and all the sudden your toe touches the ice, and you complete the revolution "on the ice" so to speak.

    Sorry to be picky -- I'm just trying to imagine how a skater could complete a jump being "forward" on the ice -- LOL. But I guess if their toe only touches, they're still mostly "in the air" and rotating, and they could complete it, but still be given a downgrade.

    Ah, the days when judges overlooked that stuff. LOL

  9. #9
    Tripping on the Podium sowcow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentWolgamott View Post
    Thank you! So to be totally clear, a downgraded jump, missing +1/2 revolution, the skater's blade is touching down on the ice when the skater is essentially forward or more, correct? For example, you're doing a triple Lutz, and you are almost 2 and 1/2 revolutions in the air, and all the sudden your toe touches the ice, and you complete the revolution "on the ice" so to speak.
    That's correct. A triple lutz would be downgraded if the skater did 2½ revolutions in the air and ½ a revolution on the ice (meaning they landed facing forward - on the toe-pick - and did the last ½ revolution on the ice).


    Quote Originally Posted by BrentWolgamott View Post
    Sorry to be picky -- I'm just trying to imagine how a skater could complete a jump being "forward" on the ice -- LOL. But I guess if their toe only touches, they're still mostly "in the air" and rotating, and they could complete it, but still be given a downgrade.

    Ah, the days when judges overlooked that stuff. LOL

    Here's a discussion with video showing a jump-combination performed a few days ago (2014 Olympics - Team - Ladies SP) that clearly shows how a skater can complete a jump facing sideways/forward. And, the Technical Panel DID overlook the severe under-rotations!

    Or, here's just the video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR8GH_rtoNc

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