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Thread: Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

  1. #46
    The Shadow knows... Tonichelle's Avatar
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    skateluvr if you go to the competitions folder the list is in the Japan Open thread. - http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...s&goto=newpost
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 10-07-2012 at 11:18 PM.

  2. #47
    Custom Title Victura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    younger skaters like Hanyu, Amodio, Gachinsky have harder jumps, and spins, footwork even better then his.
    Just FYI Amodio is actually older than Chan. I feel like he often gets portrayed as being very young by the media since he's supposed to be the next successor of French men's figure skating, but he's actually 22, not some teenager.

  3. #48
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Chan is only 21 and skaters like Armodio and Gachinsky are not even in Patricks league right now. All you have to do is look at results from the last couple years. As for Plushenko he could only wish he had the skills of Chan. Yes Plush has the jumps but not much in between.
    Amodio is a few months older and Chan and indeed not at the same level (assuming both skate cleanly). He was, in general, more of a late bloomer. It's worth noting, however, that Amodio lost a significant period of training time as a teen after being diagnosed with Osgood-Schlatter disease (source). Does that have any long-term effects? Even if not, missing nearly two years of training and competition is bound to affect a skater's progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bestskate8 View Post
    To be fair, those guys have to be at their best too. So you really doubt they can achieve level4 steps.
    Amodio - yes. Hanyu and Gachinsky? Probably not. Hanyu in particular seems to struggle with the footwork section of his programs, and his asthma means he often has stamina issues (these things can lead to messy edges, which generally drop a level four to a three). But can they score level four with mostly +2s and +3s? Again, you said that they have jumps, spins, footwork even better than his. I'd like to see a demonstration where that comes from.
    Amodio just got a level 4 for his SP steps at The Masters this weekend, and French events don't tend to be that overscored. OTOH, Joubert and Besseghier also got level 4s, so make of that what you will. In general, I think it's not as hard as it used to be to get one, so some skaters may surprise us yet. But since the ISU has decreased the importance of step sequences in recent years, I'm not sure it's as important to have great ones across the board; consistent levels 3s and good GOEs are enough to make most skaters competitive.

    Where I think Hanyu and Gachinsky have an edge is on jumps - Hanyu got his consistent at a younger age (he's still not 18!) and is now doing two different quads, and Gachi learned Mishin technique from early on, which can't hurt. Hanyu also has an advantage when it comes to the variety of spin positions he can do.

    p.s. IP, your inbox is full

  4. #49
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    Didn't that coach that he just let go help his jumps?

  5. #50
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    Buttercup, I'm gonna have to start saving our PMs to my hard drive, as I clearly don't delete them quickly enough!

    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    Didn't that coach that he just let go help his jumps?
    Krall was definitely more of a technical coach. In fact, Don Laws left him during the Olympic season because Chan was spending a lot of time in Colorado with Dartfish. Now, whether or not you think she was solely responsible for his jumps is up to you. During the 2011 Worlds, it was mentioned that Kathy Johnson helped him with movement and those improvements helped him in the jumps, for example. It's also worth mentioning that Eddie Shipstad (the pole/harness dude) is still working with him, and his training base is still Colorado Springs.

    Though I do wish Krall had a bigger role than what Chan envisioned, I can only see how it'll play out before making judgements. And even then, who knows?

  6. #51
    Custom Title mikiandorocks's Avatar
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    Chan had a bad day during the Japan Open. It can happen to anyone. Nevertheless, I don't think this will affect him at all. The grand prix series haven't started yet and skaters get better as season progresses. In my eyes, he is still pretty much a favorite to win every event he will participate. I just don't understand why some people were "jumping around with joy" with Patrick's failure at the JO

  7. #52
    The Shadow knows... Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I don't think people are cheering anyone's failure, just that the judging didn't ignore the falls.

  8. #53
    Custom Title mikiandorocks's Avatar
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    Well, maybe not on this forum but unfortunately there were some nasty comments on facebook. Anyway, I'm sure he'll bounce back

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This is not a wake-up call for Patrick or anyone else. It is just another invitation for us to line up at the CoP Kool-aid fountain.

    Fall on a 3T = 7.30 points

    Fall on a 4T "+ sequence" (there was no sequence; this is CoP-speak. Television announcers are not doing their job in educating the public about the rule, "when is a non-sequence scored as a sequence?" ) = 5.24

    Fall on a triple Axel = 6.35

    Fall on a triple Lutz "+ sequence" (lol) = 3.18

    After fall deductions, that's 18.07 points.

    There should be a mercy rule, three falls and they stop the program. (Alissa could have benefitted from this rule at Worlds.)

    The only thing Patrick will "wake up" to is the fact that one judge felt, overall. that his skating skills deserved a 9.00, his transitions between falls a 9.00, and that he "executed" his program to the tune of 9.50.

    No wonder Patrick can say in the last sentence of the interview that there is "no risk" in trying a quad flip at Canadian nationals. Indeed, there is not.

    I know, I know. It is hard to rotate four times in the air and then fall down. Just like the trapeze guy who attempted a quadruple somersault. He had a beautiful release, a position in the air to die for -- too bad about that missed catch.
    I don't see where this "sour mood" came from?

    Let's see where Patrick is now according to Japan Open results:

    1) If he landed a perfect 4T, but fell three times, he'd have gotten 10.30 + 1.00 (assume that he'd get +1 GOE which is easy for him if he lands it) = 11.30. And assume that he'd have gotten +2 in PCS for this jump. He'd wrap up +7 points more from this jump. He'll get total = 144.42. He is still the last.

    2) If he landed a perfect 4T-3T, but fell three times, he'd have gotten 14.40 + 2 (assume that he'd get +2 GOE for it) = 16.40. And assume that he'd have gotten +2 in PCS for this jump combo. He'd wrap up +14.16 more for this jump. He'll get total = 151.58. He'll be in fifth and bearly beat Brezina.

    3) If he landed both quads perfectly, but fell two times on other jumps, assume that he'd have gotten +4 in PCS, he'd wrap up +21.16 more for both quads. He'll get total = 158.58. He'll be in fourth and only beat Brezina and Plushenko.

    4) If he landed both his quad jumps and landed 3A, but fell on 3Lz + seq, his 3A would have gotten 9.35 + 1 (assume that he'd get +1 GOE for it) = 10.35. And assume he'd have gotten +1 in PCS for 3A. He'd get +27.16 more for landing two quads and a 3A. He'll get total = 164.58. He could then become third and beat Brezina, Plushenko, and Buttle.

    5) If he landed all his jumps, but made a few mistakes, such as doubled his 3F and singled his 2A, assume his 3Lz + seq will be 3Lz-1Lo-3S which will be 11.77 without GOE. Also assume that he'd get +1 PCS for this jump. He'd wrap up +37.75 more points. His total = 175.17. He will be first. His PCS might be 84.42 +6 = 90.42. Slightly lower than Takahashi has gotten this time. Or if his PCS is on the high end, it might be +7 more than he's actually gotten this time. So it could be 91.42.

    Sounds quite reasonable to me.


    ETA:

    By the way, I didn't see a direct link to this program in any threads other than Patrick's Fan Fest thread. So I brought it here:

    Patrick's La Boheme at Japan Open 2012

    I think the choreography is amazing! So, that was the result of David Wilson's work on a skater with the best skating skills! If Patrick could skate this program clean, this will be another materpiece! I love this music, and love his costume. This music and choreography suit Patrick like a glove. Looking forward to seeing him skate it clean - if he could skate clean with only Kathy Johnson by his side.

    Honestly, Johnson is a warm, nurturing mother figure. I don't think that is enough for a world top skater. Patrick is still dreaming. He hasn't woken up yet. I so want to be proved 100% wrong about this.

    Also, his PCS took quite huge a hit because of his four falls. He was in the fourth place on PCS after Takahashi, Buttle, and Plushenko. He has only beaten Kozuka and Brezina. It seems very fair to me.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-09-2012 at 10:25 PM.

  10. #55
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    thanks toni for link. it could be a great chan program. 4 falls too bad. but he is great in his exhibitions. Could it be he is so fast he cannot contol his jumps? he needs Yuna for a jump coach, lol.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 10-08-2012 at 11:56 PM.

  11. #56
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    that was a seriously good program. If he near clean with that it will bring down the house.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Buttercup, I'm gonna have to start saving our PMs to my hard drive, as I clearly don't delete them quickly enough!



    Krall was definitely more of a technical coach. In fact, Don Laws left him during the Olympic season because Chan was spending a lot of time in Colorado with Dartfish. Now, whether or not you think she was solely responsible for his jumps is up to you. During the 2011 Worlds, it was mentioned that Kathy Johnson helped him with movement and those improvements helped him in the jumps, for example. It's also worth mentioning that Eddie Shipstad (the pole/harness dude) is still working with him, and his training base is still Colorado Springs.

    Though I do wish Krall had a bigger role than what Chan envisioned, I can only see how it'll play out before making judgements. And even then, who knows?
    Thanks for the response and I also wish Krall was given a bigger role. I'm not necessarily a Patrick fan but I recognize his skills and admit to enjoying his skating/programs. I do hope he skates this program as clean as possible. Love David Wilson.
    Last edited by lavender; 10-09-2012 at 12:42 PM.

  13. #58
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    that was a seriously good program. If he near clean with that it will bring down the house.
    I think I agree - and contrary to some ubers saying "Patrick looked sick" - it was easy to see he looked OK and was joking around with his other teammates throughout the rest of the show. No doubt that he looked relaxed, happy and well.

    The "blunder boy" for whatever reasons had trouble executing his jumps at the JO.

    But after watching him skate this new program my impression was:

    "Faster than a Speeding Bullet, More Powerful than a Locomotive, Able to Leap Tall Buildings in a Single Bound:
    It’s a Bird, It’s a Plane, it's SuperChan" (TM )

    OK, maybe the part about "able to leap tall buildings" wasn't quite right that night but the rest seems to fit.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-09-2012 at 11:16 AM.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I don't think people are cheering anyone's failure, just that the judging didn't ignore the falls.
    Judges never ignore falls. Patrick's falls were duely penalized as per rules, no different from everybody else and from his other events. He rotated his big jumps and still earned decent marks from them. What really hurt him this time, besides the number of falls and deductions, were his missed combo and popped jumps near the end. These errors he seldom commits.

    An off day or a meltdown happens to the best of them and is not an indication of the skater's general level. What are more worrisome are chronic issues a skater cannot resolve, such as UR, wrong edge, or stamina porblem.

  15. #60
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I don't see where this "sour mood" came from?

    Let's see where Patrick is now according to Japan Open results:...
    It makes figure skating look like a wimpy, twerpy sport.

    In rodeo, if you fall off the bronco, then fall off the bull, then fall off your horse in calf-roping, and then your little sister falls off her horse in barrel racing, your total score for the meet is No Score + No Score + No Score + No Score. You also get No Score if you touch the animal with your free hand.

    Patrick Chan is the World Champion of Figure Skating. He is one of the greatest, if not THE greatest of all time. The boy fell down four times. Where's the hook? Where's the gong?

    True, the security of his edges of his edges, his speed across the ice, the passionate soul of his choreographer -- these send the CoP into paroxysms of ecstasy. Still ... bah! humbug!

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