Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Chan sees Japan blunders as wake-up call

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Nowadays instead of saying, "Fall, fall!" Michelle would go, "Under-rotate, under-rotate!"

Or better yet, "Omit the flying entrance to your second change-combination spin!"

That's what cost Mao Asada first place at the Japan Open.

In the CoP, you get credit for everything you do. If you make a mistake your score is lower, but you still get credit for the positive aspects ofthe element. Chan fell on his quad toe, but still ended up with 59% of full base value even after the -3 GOE and the fall deduction. He got credit for a satisfactory preparation and take-off, adequate height and distance, good form in the air and full revolutions.

Mao missed the flying entrance to her spin. She got 0 credit for making the equired revolutions, good speed and centering, required changes of edge and number and quality of positions. Sorry, cowgirl, you fell off your horse. No gold medal for you. ;)

No wonder so many find CoP so confusing!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Nowadays instead of saying, "Fall, fall!" Michelle would go, "Under-rotate, under-rotate!"

Or better yet, "Omit the flying entrance to your second change-combination spin!"

That's what cost Mao Asada first place at the Japan Open.

In the CoP, you get credit for everything you do. If you make a mistake your score is lower, but you still get credit for the positive aspects ofthe element. Chan fell on his quad toe, but still ended up with 59% of full base value even after the -3 GOE and the fall deduction. He got credit for a satisfactory preparation and take-off, adequate height and distance, good form in the air and full revolutions.

Mao missed the flying entrance to her spin. She got 0 credit for making the equired revolutions, good speed and centering, required changes of edge and number and quality of positions. Sorry, cowgirl, you fell off your horse. No gold medal for you. ;)

A fine example of the contradictions in the CoP.

As to the fans - they will never accept that Chan's mistakes were less than Mao's.

Perhaps the IJS failed to consider that fans (unlike a few judges) are NOT blind. :p
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
3) If he landed both quads perfectly, but fell two times on other jumps, ... He'll be in fourth and only beat Brezina and Plushenko[/B].
:laugh: Now you are talking. You seem finally got it right- Patrick Chan is the only one who can fall twice and he would still beat someone. Even Plu, shining with all his medals, regalia like a Christmas tree doesn't have this previlige. He did land both quads but fell on 2A and singled one of his trixel, still he had a higher BV than Buttle. Yet PCS did their job and the quadless Buttle won over Plu with two quads. Chan PCS over Kozuka is a fair play? :rofl:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
:laugh: Now you are talking. You seem finally got it right- Patrick Chan is the only one who can fall twice and he would still beat someone. Even Plu, shining with all his medals, regalia like a Christmas tree doesn't have this previlige. He did land both quads but fell on 2A and singled one of his trixel, still he had a higher BV than Buttle. Yet PCS did their job and the quadless Buttle won over Plu with two quads. Chan PCS over Kozuka is a fair play? :rofl:

Chan had better be careful - because a few more performances like what we saw at JO and his PCS will drop.
It will have nothing to do with how he skates PCS wise - it's just the way the reputation scoring works in the CoP.

Land enough big jumps and the PCS will rise. Start missing them consistently and the PCS will drop.

And some think 6.0 was hard to figure out........ha!
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
:laugh: Now you are talking. You seem finally got it right- Patrick Chan is the only one who can fall twice and he would still beat someone. Even Plu, shining with all his medals, regalia like a Christmas tree doesn't have this previlige. He did land both quads but fell on 2A and singled one of his trixel, still he had a higher BV than Buttle. Yet PCS did their job and the quadless Buttle won over Plu with two quads. Chan PCS over Kozuka is a fair play? :rofl:

With all due respect to you and to Plushenko, I see it as quite fair for Chan to have one fall cushion over Plushenko considering what they both have brought here at JO. As of Chan's PCS over Kozuka, I agree with the judges. Kozuka has lost badly in PCS with that music combined with that choreography, and rightfully so.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
I see it as quite fair for Chan to have one fall cushion over Plushenko
:laugh: Oh mein got! That is precisely the scenario that the sport needs right now. Plu, skating perfectly clean in Sochi, with two quads, two trixels and stuff, and Chan who also skates similar clean stuff but falls once on let's say 3L or waxels again his 2A. And yet Chan is over Plu because PChiddy has one fall cusion. Great. Booing in Nice will look like whispering and SLC scandal- like kids' fuss. The last nail in the coffin "fs popularity" and the sport will become a joke irrevocably, means- out of Olympics. :slink:
 

emdee

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
lets talk I guess parsing is not your strong point.... you have totally ignored Blue's subordinate clause......
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Then let us all hope PChiddy either skates beautifully, or falls twice.

Will the Russian media be as bad about something like the Patrick wins with a fall scenario as the North American media were about B&S wins with multiple little twidgetty flaws? After all, it is a home Olympics for Plushy.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
OK I have pruned about 20 posts out of this thread, and it is now open for posting again.

Please be kind and civil to each other?

Thank you.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
lets talk I guess parsing is not your strong point.... you have totally ignored Blue's subordinate clause......
All right. I see your post on analyzing my parsing skills is here. So, I will re-reply and hope you will do it in the civil manner too. The subordinate clause was "considering what they both have brought here at JO". Plu showed higher BV and PCS than Chan. Why do you think that it's quite fair that Chan still has one fall cushion over Plu?
 

emdee

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Hi Lets Talk. I am always civil.

The statement was specific to the JO. I didnt agree or disagree with Blue just felt that you were not looking at his post in the entiriety and extrapolating the first part.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
The statement was specific to the JO... just felt that you were not looking at his post in the entiriety and extrapolating the first part.
Not sure what caused this assumption. Because either looking at the post in question in the entiriety or extrapolating the first part (which would actually put Chan in milder position considering how much worse he was than Plu at JO), why should Chan have a one fall cushion over Plu in the first place? Well, let's say I didn't get the answer.
 

Pepe Nero

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 11, 2011
This is not a wake-up call for Patrick or anyone else. It is just another invitation for us to line up at the CoP Kool-aid fountain.

Fall on a 3T = 7.30 points

Fall on a 4T "+ sequence" (there was no sequence; this is CoP-speak. Television announcers are not doing their job in educating the public about the rule, "when is a non-sequence scored as a sequence?" ;) ) = 5.24

Fall on a triple Axel = 6.35

Fall on a triple Lutz "+ sequence" (lol) = 3.18

After fall deductions, that's 18.07 points.

There should be a mercy rule, three falls and they stop the program. (Alissa could have benefitted from this rule at Worlds.)

The only thing Patrick will "wake up" to is the fact that one judge felt, overall. that his skating skills deserved a 9.00, his transitions between falls a 9.00, and that he "executed" his program to the tune of 9.50.

No wonder Patrick can say in the last sentence of the interview that there is "no risk" in trying a quad flip at Canadian nationals. Indeed, there is not.

I know, I know. It is hard to rotate four times in the air and then fall down. Just like the trapeze guy who attempted a quadruple somersault. He had a beautiful release, a position in the air to die for -- too bad about that missed catch.

^what I loved about COP when it first came out was the points and score sheets - what I hate (and have for a while), is what MM just pointed out - points for falling AND points for non-existent attempts (the +sequence part). It's ridiculous.

Is anyone getting points for non-existent jumps? My understanding is that "+sequence" is added to the protocol sheet when there is a fall (or some other error) at the end of the first jump in a combination, preventing the execution of the second jump. The "+sequence" is merely a helpful notation on the protocol sheet, because otherwise it would appear that a jump had been repeated (if it's planned by itself a second time in the program), making it invalid, and thus, ineligible for points. No extra points are given simply in virtue of the "+sequence" notation on the protocol sheet, as I (possibly incorrectly) understand it.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
A new article with a lot of quotes from Patrick Chan and Kathy Johnson from yesterday:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/patrick-ch...phers-coaches-ahead-sochi-222404121--oly.html

And this article about Patrick:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskating/story/2012/10/25/sp-skate-canada-preview-patrick-chan.html

But was what happened at the Japan Open earlier this month cause for concern, or was it to be expected? Put another way, is it time for everyone to take a sedative and look forward to this weekend’s Skate Canada outing, the first of the Grand Prix circuit for Chan, with optimism?

“Um… both,” says Kurt Browning, the four-time world champion and now CBC commentator, who is a good friend of Chan’s.

“When he falls four times, in an event that was fairly important, and he looked fit for it, then something is not quite right and I don’t think it was the flu.”

OK, so let’s panic then? Not so fast.

“Sometimes, it’s a temporary thing and you can go, ‘Look, give the kid a break,’” Browning says.


ETA:


The video clip on what Patrick and Johnson said:

http://www.therecord.com/videozone/824509--chan-s-new-coach
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
“I’ve had some coaches, some judges and some people from Skate Canada say, ‘You’ve really matured as an athlete.’”
I thought so, too. Chan's skating has matured, beautiful as a poem.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
Is anyone getting points for non-existent jumps? My understanding is that "+sequence" is added to the protocol sheet when there is a fall (or some other error) at the end of the first jump in a combination, preventing the execution of the second jump. The "+sequence" is merely a helpful notation on the protocol sheet, because otherwise it would appear that a jump had been repeated (if it's planned by itself a second time in the program), making it invalid, and thus, ineligible for points. No extra points are given simply in virtue of the "+sequence" notation on the protocol sheet, as I (possibly incorrectly) understand it.

I think +SEQ is referring to when a second jump which should be put in combination is not. It's not necessarily when the skater has planned the combination. For example, a skater could have planned a 3Lz-2T (for example) as their first element, fallen on the lutz, and would just be credited with 3Lz. Later on, they had planned a solo 3Lz, lands it, but that is the one that would receive +SEQ because that's where they needed to tack on a combination since it's the repeated jump.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I think +SEQ is referring to when a second jump which should be put in combination is not. It's not necessarily when the skater has planned the combination. For example, a skater could have planned a 3Lz-2T (for example) as their first element, fallen on the lutz, and would just be credited with 3Lz. Later on, they had planned a solo 3Lz, lands it, but that is the one that would receive +SEQ because that's where they needed to tack on a combination since it's the repeated jump.

A smart and competent skater would have added the 2T to the second 3Lz in this scenario. It is when a planned combo as the repeat is messed up that a skater has no recourse. That's why most would do the combo first if they could so there is a chance to remedy the missed second jump if necessary.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Is anyone getting points for non-existent jumps? My understanding is that "+sequence" is added to the protocol sheet when there is a fall (or some other error) at the end of the first jump in a combination, preventing the execution of the second jump. The "+sequence" is merely a helpful notation on the protocol sheet, because otherwise it would appear that a jump had been repeated (if it's planned by itself a second time in the program), making it invalid, and thus, ineligible for points. No extra points are given simply in virtue of the "+sequence" notation on the protocol sheet, as I (possibly incorrectly) understand it.

No extra points, it's just the terminology I was making fun of.

Instead of saying, "plus sequence" why don't they call it "plus moonpie." Oh, I know. They don't call it plus moonpie because there was no moonpie. ;)

But to be a little less silly, in a way it is giving skaters credit for doing something that they did not do. The rule says you can't repeat the same jump unless you do a sequence. But that's not really true. You can do a triple Lutz and then afterward a triple Lutz "plus sequence" (wink,wink).

Better not do an extra sequence, though. Then you get no points at all, not even for the successful first jump.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
A smart and competent skater would have added the 2T to the second 3Lz in this scenario. It is when a planned combo as the repeat is messed up that a skater has no recourse. That's why most would do the combo first if they could so there is a chance to remedy the missed second jump if necessary.

Well, yes, but I was just explaining the concept of +SEQ.
 
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