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Thread: Judges for 2013 ISU Championships

  1. #61
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    If you have some good ideas to suggest, by all means suggest them, with specifics for how they could work by developing the sport as it's now practiced into a new direction. I tried to take your suggestion of professionalizing judges seriously by raising some questions that would need to be answered if any move were to be made in that direction.

    We can also fantasize about wouldn't it be great if skating were structured like X. I enjoy doing that myself, imagining alternative competition structures for example. But if the only way to get there from here is to cancel all skating competitions for at least a year, disband the figure skating branch of the ISU, and start from scratch, then we have to recognize that we're dealing with thought experiments and not real proposals.

    Still, such discussions can be thought-provoking, and who knows, if we're lucky maybe some folks who do have some input into ISU decisions will find their thoughts provoked into suggesting changes in that direction.

    But just complaining about what the ISU does wrong and blaming them for not having done things the same way that other sports with other histories have, without offering any specific alternative plans, is not productive.

    Pretend the old and middle-aged men and women in the ISU leadership have hired you to transform the sport. Taking into account the realities of the way Olympic/amateur sports, specifically skating, have been structured around national federations, the fact that ice is hard/expensive to come by in many areas, and all the rest of the facts of skating as it exists now, what do you think could be done differently, and what would be the best way to get there? Do the research first, then come up with a plan. Or present the plan first and be prepared for more questions afterward: How would you deal with situations you didn't take into account yet? Maybe go back to my post #45 and address some of those questions about professionalizing judging, which were offered in good faith.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    If you have some good ideas to suggest, by all means suggest them, with specifics for how they could work by developing the sport as it's now practiced into a new direction. I tried to take your suggestion of professionalizing judges seriously by raising some questions that would need to be answered if any move were to be made in that direction.

    We can also fantasize about wouldn't it be great if skating were structured like X. I enjoy doing that myself, imagining alternative competition structures for example. But if the only way to get there from here is to cancel all skating competitions for at least a year, disband the figure skating branch of the ISU, and start from scratch, then we have to recognize that we're dealing with thought experiments and not real proposals.

    Still, such discussions can be thought-provoking, and who knows, if we're lucky maybe some folks who do have some input into ISU decisions will find their thoughts provoked into suggesting changes in that direction.

    But just complaining about what the ISU does wrong and blaming them for not having done things the same way that other sports with other histories have, without offering any specific alternative plans, is not productive.

    Pretend the old and middle-aged men and women in the ISU leadership have hired you to transform the sport. Taking into account the realities of the way Olympic/amateur sports, specifically skating, have been structured around national federations, the fact that ice is hard/expensive to come by in many areas, and all the rest of the facts of skating as it exists now, what do you think could be done differently, and what would be the best way to get there? Do the research first, then come up with a plan. Or present the plan first and be prepared for more questions afterward: How would you deal with situations you didn't take into account yet? Maybe go back to my post #45 and address some of those questions about professionalizing judging, which were offered in good faith.
    Good post - and I will answer by pm......

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree that slippers and pajamas at the mall are a little too much.

    But...United States culture hss a strong current of egalitarianism. For better or for worse, we tend to celebrate what is most common in the common man.
    I didn't mean to mock American culture in anyways. I brought them up to prove that all cultures and trends are flooding against the popularity of figure skating - classical, classy, sophisticated, elegant, balletic,...


    ETA:

    Even the formal dinning room beautiful, heavy draperies are hard to find these days compared with 10 years ago. The decorations in the house are trending to be down to earth, useful, straight-lined,... The sophisticated Victorian style furnitures and decorations are unpopular now but it didn't extinct. That's the most beautiful style I love. Gee, my taste must be like an 120 year old person.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-12-2012 at 02:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I didn't mean to mock American culture in anyways. I brought them up to prove that all cultures and trends are flooding against the popularity of figure skating - classical, classy, sophisticated, elegant, balletic,...
    Then if what you say is true - doesn't that point to a strong case for re-evaluating the sport - from top to bottom?

    I intentionally said "top to bottom" because compared to the more successful growing sports - figure skating is run in the manner of a pyramid.

    Yet everyone acknowledges it is the BASE of the the pyramid that is where the strength lies.

    Why two more years of Cinquanta - when it is obvious the sport is floundering - and he never got it in the first place?

    Button predicted everything we see happening today back in 2002.

    I just hope we see some big changes in ISU before skating becomes even less of a blip on the radar.

    It's a beautiful sport and what a shame if it will soon lose it's TV and Internet contracts/exposure in USA.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-12-2012 at 12:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Then if what you say is true - doesn't that point to a strong case for re-evaluating the sport - from top to bottom?
    I've said it in other threads. I believe several other posters have said this somewhere not long ago too. If you don't remember it, let me repeat it again:

    The ISU has already thought about changing this sport to follow the trend of the moving culture and society. After 2014, vocals will be introduced into single's skating. So after 2014, the figure skating might not really be the figure skating we know now. But to earn the popularity is not a work that could be down in one night. It takes time. Have you seen the movie "Sister Act"? The singer changed the unpopular church music into the popular songs and then attracted more young people into the church.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I've said it in other threads. I believe several other posters have said this somewhere not long ago too. If you don't remember it, let me repeat it again:

    The ISU has already thought about changing this sport to follow the trend of the moving culture and society. After 2014, vocals will be introduced into single's skating. So after 2014, the figure skating then might not really be the figure skating we know now. But to earn the popularity is not a work that could be down in one night. It takes time. Have you seen the movie "Sister Act"? The singer changed the unpopular church music into the popular songs and then attracted more young people into the church.
    I intentionaly passed on seeing "Sister Act" but we all have different taste.

    Here is a point I make over and over that nobody gets:

    Real leadership with a strong vision does NOT FOLLOW.......it LEADS. Innovation leads to something better.

    Adding vocals as an attempt to ride the coat-tails of Pop Music does not seem to be very visionary to me.
    It seems more like an ill-conceived attempt done out of desperation by a group of confused and culturally overmatched old men.

    What I would like to see is a group or governing council of active skaters have a chance to decide this.
    If they voted for it then atleast it would be a decision based on what the athletes want.

    More and more that is how the more successful sports are doing things. Of course those athletes are not ruled by a dictatorship that bases just about every decision on retaining it's own power.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-12-2012 at 01:35 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Here is a point I make over and over that nobody gets:

    Real leadership with a strong vision does NOT FOLLOW.......it LEADS. Innovation leads to something better.
    Figure Skating will never lead a society! It has to follow a society closely or it'll die down if not extinct. I believe it will evolve into what we might not recognize but it will never extinct.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Figure Skating will never lead a society! It has to follow a society closely or it'll die down if not extinct. I believe it will evolve into what we might not recognize but it will never extinct.
    We just have differing opinions about that.

    Did Steve Jobs and Apple help revolutionize world communications because they FOLLOWED the safe path?

    When the "accountants" (people like Cinquanta ) forced Steve Jobs out of Apple the company floundered.

    When Jobs returned so did Apple's vision and role as an innovator return.

    This concept never changes and is applicable just about everywhere and for everything.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-12-2012 at 02:11 PM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Even the formal dinning room beautiful, heavy draperies are hard to find these days compared with 10 years ago. The decorations in the house are trending to be down to earth, useful, straight-lined,... The sophisticated Victorian style furnitures and decorations are unpopular now but it didn't extinguish. That's the most beautiful style I love. Gee, my taste must be like an 120 year old person.
    actually "vintage" is coming back in style.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    actually "vintage" is coming back in style.
    I hope so because I'm having hardtime decorating my house these days.

    ...Well, on a second thought, if figure skating could hold on and wait patiently. After 50 years, when people are tired of modern things, they might come back and revisit the classical stuff.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-12-2012 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #71
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    Americans still embrace figure skating at the Olympics every four years, so I don't think it's a lost cause to hope that the sport somehow can regain some of its popularity.

    Also: For millions and millions of Americans, a combination of choreography, music, and costumes has become appointment television -- two nights per week.
    I am not a Dancing with the Stars addict or advocate, but it is undeniable that the show has become pervasive in American pop culture.

    Whether one likes the show or not, the success of DWTS (originated by the Brits, but now well-entrenched in the USA) demonstrates that it is possible to transform what was a relatively obscure passion of relatively few into a wildly popular and enduring craze among the general public.

    The "stars" component of DTWS cannot be the entire explanation, because the "celebrity" contestants often are well-known (before DWTS) only within their own specialties or within certain demographics. (That is my impression, at least -- when the cast list is announced before each season, invariably some names are completely new to me, and others barely ring a bell.)

    Noteworthy as well is that some of the professional dancers on DWTS achieve remarkable popularity in their own rights among the general public, with huge fan bases that in some cases even lead to opportunities in other fields. These once-"anonymous" ballroom dancers become widely appreciated for their own talents, personalities, etc., thanks to their exposure on DWTS.

    I am not suggesting that the sport of figure skating should strive to emulate the entire concept of DWTS. (And I realize that reality tv producers in the USA and elsewhere already have offered and do offer "celebrity" skating shows.)
    Just sayin' that with certain elements already in common, it seems to me that all those eyeballs on DWTS are a ripe potential American audience for competitive figure skating as we know it.
    Last edited by golden411; 10-12-2012 at 03:26 PM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Americans still embrace figure skating at the Olympics every four years, so I don't think it's a lost cause to hope that the sport somehow can regain some of its popularity.

    Also: For millions and millions of Americans, a combination of choreography, music, and costumes has become appointment television -- two nights per week.
    I am not a Dancing with the Stars addict or advocate, but it is undeniable that the show has become pervasive in American pop culture.

    Whether one likes the show or not, the success of DWTS (originated by the Brits, but now well-entrenched in the USA) demonstrates that it is possible to transform what was a relatively obscure passion of relatively few into a wildly popular and enduring craze among the general public.

    The "stars" component of DTWS cannot be the entire explanation, because the "celebrity" contestants often are well-known (before DWTS) only within their own specialties or within certain demographics. (That is my impression, at least -- when the cast list is announced before each season, invariably some names are completely new to me, and others barely ring a bell.)

    Noteworthy as well is that some of the professional dancers on DWTS achieve remarkable popularity in their own rights among the general public, with huge fan bases that in some cases even lead to opportunities in other fields. These once-"anonymous" ballroom dancers become widely appreciated for their own talents, personalities, etc., thanks to their exposure on DWTS.

    I am not suggesting that the sport of figure skating should strive to emulate the entire concept of DWTS. (And I realize that reality tv producers in the USA and elsewhere already have offered and do offer "celebrity" skating shows.)
    Just sayin' that with certain elements already in common, it seems to me that all those eyeballs on DWTS are a ripe potential American audience for competitive figure skating as we know it.
    Nice post - I actually mentioned some of the same things and suggested DWTS was a natural place for D/W to appear with the point of raising the profile of skating in the USA.

    Typically my post was met with a degree of scorn here - but no big deal as I know from experience I am right about this.

    In fact I can easily predict D/W appearing on DWTS would create a minor sensation.

    For those who dont get it - a "minor sensation" would be one of the best things to happen to US Skating since Sasha was still competing......
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-12-2012 at 04:36 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Why two more years of Cinquanta - when it is obvious the sport is floundering - and he never got it in the first place?
    I really think that back in 1994 Mr C. thought of himself as the new blood that the stodgy old sport needed. He tried to introduce innovations that he thought would attract more viewers (the Grand Prix for instance), he thought he was a better financial manager than previous administrations (he started off with a bang by negotiating a twenty million dollar deal with ABC television in the U.S.), and he tried to make the ISU leaner and meaner by curtailing the power of the old conservative national federations.

    His big triumph was seizing on the Salt Lake City scandal to put in place a new judging system that made figure skating "more of a sport and less of a pageant" by quantifying those parts of a skating performance than can be objectively quantified, while not sucking the artistic soul out of the discipline.

    Things didn't work out altogether the way Mr. Cinquanta hoped.

    In my opinion, one thing that figure skating in the CoP era lacks in comparison to many other sports is that thrill of victory, agony of defeat, do or die moment when we are on the edge of our seats holding our breath. Who would have thought that golf (a sport for old geezers who are now so decrepit that they can't play real sports any more) would become a billion dollar spectator sport?

    But one thing that golf does have is that moment when the guy faces a 20 foot birdie putt on the 72nd hole for the championship.

    In 6.0 skating there was a little of that. Michelle has 6 triples in the bank, here she goes for that second triple Lutz at 3:45, do or die. Oh no! She fell! It cost her the gold!!

    In CoP, you get a tenth of a point here, a tenth there, you finish up and wait for the computer to tell you how you did. Well..OK.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Good post - and I will answer by pm......
    Hey, that's the best part! Why are you hiding it?! Come on! gkelly has asked real questions. And we are eager to hear your real answers. Show your genius plans and solutions!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    In 6.0 skating there was a little of that. Michelle has 6 triples in the bank, here she goes for that second triple Lutz at 3:45, do or die. Oh no! She fell! It cost her the gold!!

    In CoP, you get a tenth of a point here, a tenth there, you finish up and wait for the computer to tell you how you did. Well..OK.
    CoP has that same potential... if jumps actually got hit harder when you fell...

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