2012 Skate America Men's Short Program | Page 5 | Golden Skate

2012 Skate America Men's Short Program

A.H.Black

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
Just saw Kozuka's program. I like what he is doing with Exodus. I don't think Hanyu was 10 points better.
 

Becki

Medalist
Joined
Nov 28, 2011
Just gotta say, Yuzuru Hanyu - Holy crap!!! 95!!!! His program was so good, and he just keeps amazing me. However, I do have to agree with some of you who said 95 seemed a little high. His program was great, but was it the greatest short program that's ever been done in the history of the current scoring system, therefore deserving the world record? I'm not so sure...

Well, the greatest short programs don't always get the highest scores. The highest scores come from knowing how to milk the current scoring system. With that being said, Hanyu had two jumping passes after the half way mark (3A and 3Lz-3T) - racking up bonus marks.

I don't think Hanyu was over-scored, but then again, I am a big fan of his' :laugh:
 

Snoopy15

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Just gotta say, Yuzuru Hanyu - Holy crap!!! 95!!!! His program was so good, and he just keeps amazing me. However, I do have to agree with some of you who said 95 seemed a little high. His program was great, but was it the greatest short program that's ever been done in the history of the current scoring system, therefore deserving the world record? I'm not so sure...

You are correct in one aspect in that it is NOT the greatest SP ever done in the history of the COP.
But remember one important factor: The half-way bonus mark is now integrated into the COP.
And Hanyu has 2 jumps after the half-mark, two of them garnering approximately 10 points each.
Multiply each of those elements by 10% and account for those insanely difficult transitions and high-level spins, and you have a new WR score. :)
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Plus, Hanyu received bonus points for his jumps. Great job tonight!! Actually, all the Japanese guys did great!! And they deserved their scores--no politics involved!!

Yes, the Japanese guys were good, but they also have a strong fed, and politics is always involved in figure skating.
 

Snoopy15

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Just saw Kozuka's program. I like what he is doing with Exodus. I don't think Hanyu was 10 points better.

Agreed, I thought Kozuka showed a refined maturity that I haven't seen before. I really enjoyed how his effortless gliding compliments the majestic tone of the piece, it really translates well.
There's something about his skating that makes you go wow...
 

heyhey

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Just gotta say, Yuzuru Hanyu - Holy crap!!! 95!!!! His program was so good, and he just keeps amazing me. However, I do have to agree with some of you who said 95 seemed a little high. His program was great, but was it the greatest short program that's ever been done in the history of the current scoring system, therefore deserving the world record? I'm not so sure...

Well I have to agree Butterscotch - I mean just look at Orser's reaction to the score. Yes - great skate - but I wouldn't call it the best SP to date...my two cents...
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
You are correct in one aspect in that it is NOT the greatest SP ever done in the history of the COP.
But remember one important factor: The half-way bonus mark is now integrated into the COP.
And Hanyu has 2 jumps after the half-mark, two of them garnering approximately 10 points each.
Multiply each of those elements by 10% and account for those insanely difficult transitions and high-level spins, and you have a new WR score. :)

Yes, back to the points-grabbing of the current judging system, rather than looking at the overall program's value artistically and technically.

Well, Hanyu will either maintain at this level or dip down a bit. Can't see him going 100 at this point. Let the guy mature a bit more, for goodness sake. He's certainly a phenom, but he's not the best thing since sliced bread, IMHO.
 
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SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
95 is a high score, but were you guys paying any attention at all to his elements? All of his jumps were not only clean as a whistle, but they were also all preceded by steps (and the axel came out of nowhere immediately following A COUNTER!!!). (I will concede, though that the new jump bonus added the 2 points that made the difference between record-matching and record-breaking.) The merits of his program components are harder to demonstrate in writing, but I never found the former record holder's particularly unmatched, so I think the PCS score wasn't out of the question.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a visiting federation, however, influential got an overwhelming score boost above and beyond the host federation...
 

Snoopy15

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Yes, back to the points-grabbing of the current judging system, rather than looking at the overall program's value artistically and technically.

Sorry, I didn't meant it like that.
Honestly though, his transitions and steps inbetween just leave me in awe, I have never witnessed such elegance and grace throughout the transitions, especially the ones right before the jumps.
Granted, I do believe that Kozuka should've been much closer to Hanyu, same goes for Abbott
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Sorry, I didn't meant it like that.
Honestly though, his transitions and steps inbetween just leave me in awe, I have never witnessed such elegance and grace throughout the transitions, especially the ones right before the jumps.
Granted, I do believe that Kozuka should've been much closer to Hanyu, same goes for Abbott

Agreed. Definitely Hanyu has wonderful skills, but I still feel a lack of maturity in him, particularly in comparison to Dai and Abbott. Of course with how good Hanyu is now, with more maturity, he might just be out of this world. But again, why overdo it with the marks now as if he is so much better than the other guys when he's not. I just don't like seeing crazy, out of sight marks for anyone, even my favorites.

I do feel that Orser has managed to steady and pace Hanyu, as the anointed one often seemed to have trouble with endurance last season.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
95 is a high score, but were you guys paying any attention at all to his elements? All of his jumps were not only clean as a whistle, but they were also all preceded by steps (and the axel came out of nowhere immediately following A COUNTER!!!). (I will concede, though that the new jump bonus added the 2 points that made the difference between record-matching and record-breaking.) The merits of his program components are harder to demonstrate in writing, but I never found the former record holder's particularly unmatched, so I think the PCS score wasn't out of the question.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a visiting federation, however, influential got an overwhelming score boost above and beyond the host federation...

All the American men have to show they can consistently land quads. But seriously U.S. fed politically has at least the last 10 to 15 years had to play catch up with Canadian, Russian and now Japanese feds.

Hanyu came in as current World bronze medal holder, and Kozuka has rep too, so it's a given they came in rated higher in the judges minds than all the American guys. But seriously, Abbott should be talked about in the same breath with the top guys. IMHO, Abbott is a better all-around skater. Again, he needs to show it consistently and since he has faltered in big moments, that rep has helped to hold Abbott down. But also, U.S. fed is often clueless politically.
 
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SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Rewatching, I'm seeing more of the genius of that 3A (Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but those with more technical knowledge will hopefully get me.)

Did you all see how the counter, the airtime, and the exiting edge were, exactly on the music? Getting a 3A that big is praiseworthy, adding a counter immediately preceding it is mind-boggling, but doing all of that exactly to the music (allowing no room for error/hesitation)? Unheard of.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
^^ I hope a youtube clip surfaces soon to rewatch. The live stream wasn't great. Hanyu didn't perform his sp this well at Finlandia but he still won that event overall with his fp. The move to Orser is looking good at this point.

Hanyu still needs to mature. I don't care how well he performed to CoP standards. With as high a score as that this early in the season (which puts the comp out of reach btw -- he could call in his fp), where does Hanyu have to go for the rest of the season? Stay on autopilot? I guess we'll find out.
 
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heyhey

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2011
Rewatching, I'm seeing more of the genius of that 3A (Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but those with more technical knowledge will hopefully get me.)

Did you all see how the counter, the airtime, and the exiting edge were, exactly on the music? Getting a 3A that big is praiseworthy, adding a counter immediately preceding it is mind-boggling, but doing all of that exactly to the music (allowing no room for error/hesitation)? Unheard of.[/QUOTE

I agree Serpentine that his jumping technique is there and this is a great start to the season. But on the flip side, you don't want an athlete to peak too early and you hate to say this but you hope that with all these quad attempts for both the short and long programs - we are potentially looking at some injuries.
 

SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Rewatching, I'm seeing more of the genius of that 3A (Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but those with more technical knowledge will hopefully get me.)

Did you all see how the counter, the airtime, and the exiting edge were, exactly on the music? Getting a 3A that big is praiseworthy, adding a counter immediately preceding it is mind-boggling, but doing all of that exactly to the music (allowing no room for error/hesitation)? Unheard of.

I agree Serpentine that his jumping technique is there and this is a great start to the season. But on the flip side, you don't want an athlete to peak too early and you hate to say this but you hope that with all these quad attempts for both the short and long programs - we are potentially looking at some injuries.

I was making that argument as objective grounds as to why his program was worthy of a world record, as it packaged his crazy jumping in equally musicality and difficult transitions; I wasn't making a statement about the implications on his peaking. While we're on the topic, though--and I hesitate to make this comparison since some of her fans aren't exactly technical specialists--,Yuna Kim was shattering records early in her 2009-2010 season, and she seemed to fare fine towards the end of the season. :)

Also, I doubt that Brian Orser would do anything that would jeopardize his athletes' health. Routinely doing barely-quads leads to injury. When they're that easy, not so much.
 
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Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
The second half bonus has been mentioned - this season's scores will likely be on the high end compared to previous years.

Hanyu, in addition to being crazy talented and with a huge repertoire of skills, is very young - meaning that he was trained exclusively for IJS skating and can make any adjustment that will get higher points. The second half jumps, doing a solo quad with actual steps into it (too often skaters skip the steps part when they make the 4T the "jump out of steps"), the spins, the transitions - he checks off every box. And while I was not a huge fan of this coaching change, it certainly signaled to the judges that his federation is very, very serious about his prospects. As they should be. He is a Plushenko-level talent without being encumbered by Mishin's taste or years spent under 6.0. When I saw Hanyu at 2009 JW, I thought he'd be going places, I just didn't think he'd do it so fast (I can dig up the three and a half year old post where I said he'd more likely contend in 2018). Keep proving me both right and wrong, Yuzuru ;)

I hate the music though, and am not fond of the program. It makes him look like a Dai wannabe rather than a skater with his own (developing?) style, and he's not the performer Dai is. To that end, I think he was overscored in some of the components. But this was a 90+ skate, no doubt about it. I hope Nanami Abe will get a ton of credit for all the work she did with him, rather than his success being attributed to Orser à la Yu-Na Kim.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Thanks aemeraldrainc.

Yes, Hanyu, performed really really well this early in the season. He was on. In his 3/3 combo near the end, he was leaning in the air on the first jump but corrected it for a good landing and take-off for the next jump. I can see Hanyu channeling Dai, especially in the first part of the program. It was super clean and Hanyu was very controlled and sharp (which I also see as Orser influence b/c Hanyu's movement style was not quite as crisp previously). IMO, Hanyu still lacks maturity. It's the pyrotechnics and points-gathering which CoP rewards. The judges do like to anoint someone like Hanyu who has the tricks and the potential for great artistry. Right now his artistry is budding, not blooming, IMO.
 

SerpentineSteps

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
The second half bonus has been mentioned - this season's scores will likely be on the high end compared to previous years.

Hanyu, in addition to being crazy talented and with a huge repertoire of skills, is very young - meaning that he was trained exclusively for IJS skating and can make any adjustment that will get higher points. The second half jumps, doing a solo quad with actual steps into it (too often skaters skip the steps part when they make the 4T the "jump out of steps"), the spins, the transitions - he checks off every box. And while I was not a huge fan of this coaching change, it certainly signaled to the judges that his federation is very, very serious about his prospects. As they should be. He is a Plushenko-level talent without being encumbered by Mishin's taste or years spent under 6.0. When I saw Hanyu at 2009 JW, I thought he'd be going places, I just didn't think he'd do it so fast (I can dig up the three and a half year old post where I said he'd more likely contend in 2018). Keep proving me both right and wrong, Yuzuru ;)

I hate the music though, and am not fond of the program. It makes him look like a Dai wannabe rather than a skater with his own (developing?) style, and he's not the performer Dai is. To that end, I think he was overscored in some of the components. But this was a 90+ skate, no doubt about it. I hope Nanami Abe will get a ton of credit for all the work she did with him, rather than his success being attributed to Orser à la Yu-Na Kim.

I completely agree, esp. re: the last paragraph.

The one thing that I dislike about the program is the Daisuke-like music/styling. While I commend the program in that it takes Yuzuru out of his comfort zone (though he seems to have embraced the showman persona quite well), it does scream Daisuke wannabe. Hopefully this is to make the judges associate him with world-champion material before truly coming to his own in the 2013-14 season.

Also regarding Nanami Abe. Although I have my doubts about this actually happening, it would make me so happy if both Orser and Abe are by his side in Sochi!
 
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