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Thread: 2012 Skate America Men's Short Program

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by SerpentineSteps View Post
    95 is a high score, but were you guys paying any attention at all to his elements? All of his jumps were not only clean as a whistle, but they were also all preceded by steps (and the axel came out of nowhere immediately following A COUNTER!!!). (I will concede, though that the new jump bonus added the 2 points that made the difference between record-matching and record-breaking.) The merits of his program components are harder to demonstrate in writing, but I never found the former record holder's particularly unmatched, so I think the PCS score wasn't out of the question.

    I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that a visiting federation, however, influential got an overwhelming score boost above and beyond the host federation...
    All the American men have to show they can consistently land quads. But seriously U.S. fed politically has at least the last 10 to 15 years had to play catch up with Canadian, Russian and now Japanese feds.

    Hanyu came in as current World bronze medal holder, and Kozuka has rep too, so it's a given they came in rated higher in the judges minds than all the American guys. But seriously, Abbott should be talked about in the same breath with the top guys. IMHO, Abbott is a better all-around skater. Again, he needs to show it consistently and since he has faltered in big moments, that rep has helped to hold Abbott down. But also, U.S. fed is often clueless politically.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 10-20-2012 at 12:41 AM.

  2. #92
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    Rewatching, I'm seeing more of the genius of that 3A (Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but those with more technical knowledge will hopefully get me.)

    Did you all see how the counter, the airtime, and the exiting edge were, exactly on the music? Getting a 3A that big is praiseworthy, adding a counter immediately preceding it is mind-boggling, but doing all of that exactly to the music (allowing no room for error/hesitation)? Unheard of.

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    ^^ I hope a youtube clip surfaces soon to rewatch. The live stream wasn't great. Hanyu didn't perform his sp this well at Finlandia but he still won that event overall with his fp. The move to Orser is looking good at this point.

    Hanyu still needs to mature. I don't care how well he performed to CoP standards. With as high a score as that this early in the season (which puts the comp out of reach btw -- he could call in his fp), where does Hanyu have to go for the rest of the season? Stay on autopilot? I guess we'll find out.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 10-20-2012 at 12:46 AM.

  4. #94
    Rooting for Adrian, Javi and Kevin R!!! :) aemeraldrainc's Avatar
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  5. #95
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    [QUOTE=SerpentineSteps;667512]Rewatching, I'm seeing more of the genius of that 3A (Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but those with more technical knowledge will hopefully get me.)

    Did you all see how the counter, the airtime, and the exiting edge were, exactly on the music? Getting a 3A that big is praiseworthy, adding a counter immediately preceding it is mind-boggling, but doing all of that exactly to the music (allowing no room for error/hesitation)? Unheard of.[/QUOTE

    I agree Serpentine that his jumping technique is there and this is a great start to the season. But on the flip side, you don't want an athlete to peak too early and you hate to say this but you hope that with all these quad attempts for both the short and long programs - we are potentially looking at some injuries.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SerpentineSteps View Post
    Rewatching, I'm seeing more of the genius of that 3A (Sorry for sounding like a broken record, but those with more technical knowledge will hopefully get me.)

    Did you all see how the counter, the airtime, and the exiting edge were, exactly on the music? Getting a 3A that big is praiseworthy, adding a counter immediately preceding it is mind-boggling, but doing all of that exactly to the music (allowing no room for error/hesitation)? Unheard of.
    I agree Serpentine that his jumping technique is there and this is a great start to the season. But on the flip side, you don't want an athlete to peak too early and you hate to say this but you hope that with all these quad attempts for both the short and long programs - we are potentially looking at some injuries.
    I was making that argument as objective grounds as to why his program was worthy of a world record, as it packaged his crazy jumping in equally musicality and difficult transitions; I wasn't making a statement about the implications on his peaking. While we're on the topic, though--and I hesitate to make this comparison since some of her fans aren't exactly technical specialists--,Yuna Kim was shattering records early in her 2009-2010 season, and she seemed to fare fine towards the end of the season.

    Also, I doubt that Brian Orser would do anything that would jeopardize his athletes' health. Routinely doing barely-quads leads to injury. When they're that easy, not so much.
    Last edited by SerpentineSteps; 10-20-2012 at 01:02 AM.

  7. #97
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    The second half bonus has been mentioned - this season's scores will likely be on the high end compared to previous years.

    Hanyu, in addition to being crazy talented and with a huge repertoire of skills, is very young - meaning that he was trained exclusively for IJS skating and can make any adjustment that will get higher points. The second half jumps, doing a solo quad with actual steps into it (too often skaters skip the steps part when they make the 4T the "jump out of steps"), the spins, the transitions - he checks off every box. And while I was not a huge fan of this coaching change, it certainly signaled to the judges that his federation is very, very serious about his prospects. As they should be. He is a Plushenko-level talent without being encumbered by Mishin's taste or years spent under 6.0. When I saw Hanyu at 2009 JW, I thought he'd be going places, I just didn't think he'd do it so fast (I can dig up the three and a half year old post where I said he'd more likely contend in 2018). Keep proving me both right and wrong, Yuzuru

    I hate the music though, and am not fond of the program. It makes him look like a Dai wannabe rather than a skater with his own (developing?) style, and he's not the performer Dai is. To that end, I think he was overscored in some of the components. But this was a 90+ skate, no doubt about it. I hope Nanami Abe will get a ton of credit for all the work she did with him, rather than his success being attributed to Orser à la Yu-Na Kim.

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    Double post
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 10-20-2012 at 01:04 AM.

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    Thanks aemeraldrainc.

    Yes, Hanyu, performed really really well this early in the season. He was on. In his 3/3 combo near the end, he was leaning in the air on the first jump but corrected it for a good landing and take-off for the next jump. I can see Hanyu channeling Dai, especially in the first part of the program. It was super clean and Hanyu was very controlled and sharp (which I also see as Orser influence b/c Hanyu's movement style was not quite as crisp previously). IMO, Hanyu still lacks maturity. It's the pyrotechnics and points-gathering which CoP rewards. The judges do like to anoint someone like Hanyu who has the tricks and the potential for great artistry. Right now his artistry is budding, not blooming, IMO.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    The second half bonus has been mentioned - this season's scores will likely be on the high end compared to previous years.

    Hanyu, in addition to being crazy talented and with a huge repertoire of skills, is very young - meaning that he was trained exclusively for IJS skating and can make any adjustment that will get higher points. The second half jumps, doing a solo quad with actual steps into it (too often skaters skip the steps part when they make the 4T the "jump out of steps"), the spins, the transitions - he checks off every box. And while I was not a huge fan of this coaching change, it certainly signaled to the judges that his federation is very, very serious about his prospects. As they should be. He is a Plushenko-level talent without being encumbered by Mishin's taste or years spent under 6.0. When I saw Hanyu at 2009 JW, I thought he'd be going places, I just didn't think he'd do it so fast (I can dig up the three and a half year old post where I said he'd more likely contend in 2018). Keep proving me both right and wrong, Yuzuru

    I hate the music though, and am not fond of the program. It makes him look like a Dai wannabe rather than a skater with his own (developing?) style, and he's not the performer Dai is. To that end, I think he was overscored in some of the components. But this was a 90+ skate, no doubt about it. I hope Nanami Abe will get a ton of credit for all the work she did with him, rather than his success being attributed to Orser à la Yu-Na Kim.
    I completely agree, esp. re: the last paragraph.

    The one thing that I dislike about the program is the Daisuke-like music/styling. While I commend the program in that it takes Yuzuru out of his comfort zone (though he seems to have embraced the showman persona quite well), it does scream Daisuke wannabe. Hopefully this is to make the judges associate him with world-champion material before truly coming to his own in the 2013-14 season.

    Also regarding Nanami Abe. Although I have my doubts about this actually happening, it would make me so happy if both Orser and Abe are by his side in Sochi!
    Last edited by SerpentineSteps; 10-20-2012 at 01:15 AM.

  11. #101
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    Yes, Buttercup, I had already posted before seeing your post -- ITA, Dai wannabe, particularly at the beginning with the running his hands through his hair, and the jazz-themed music. I hope this season's scores will not be on the high end. It would have been so interesting to see how many 6.0s he would have got for this performance this early in the season.

    I agree with your points, Buttercup and heyhey. Serpentine, re Yu Na, that doesn't mean anything re a comparison to Hanyu, IMHO (even despite them both being trained by Orser). Of course Orser is not planning to do anything to endanger Hanyu's health, but by the very nature of young bodies landing quads, it's dangerous. There's only so much that can be done to try and prevent injuries over time. Before his career is over, Hanyu could be having hip operations. Don't forget the serious injury/ operation Dai had to come back from.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Of course Orser is not planning to do anything to endanger Hanyu's health, but by the very nature of young bodies landing quads, it's dangerous. There's only so much that can be done to try and prevent injuries over time. Before his career is over, Hanyu could be having hip operations. Don't forget the serious injury/ operation Dai had to come back from.
    And I'm sure that's what people were saying when triples were rare. Like I said, if the technique is fine and landing is that clean and unforced, the risk of injury (especially above and beyond that from a triple) is minimal.

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    No Serpentine, I don't think so. I really don't, but you could ask Dick Button. I think there is a great deal of difference between 3 revolutions and 4 revolutions in terms of physics, (energy, physical impact, training, strategy, you name it). It's probably not that hard to determine also whether injuries increased as more and more athletes began mastering triples.

    It took quite a while for triples to become standard in the sport after the first one was landed, about 30 years, if I'm not mistaken. Whereas for quads, about 20 years for the quad to become fairly mandatory and the majority of guys have not fully mastered them yet. As for triples, by the time they were mandatory practically all the top guys were consistently landing them.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 10-20-2012 at 01:24 AM.

  14. #104
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Of course Orser is not planning to do anything to endanger Hanyu's health, but by the very nature of young bodies landing quads, it's dangerous. There's only so much that can be done to try and prevent injuries over time. Before his career is over, Hanyu could be having hip operations. Don't forget the serious injury/ operation Dai had to come back from.
    IIRC, Dai's injury was a torn ACL, which he sustained on a bad 3A landing in practice; the 2011 surgery was to remove a bolt inserted during the original surgery. But ACL tears are not repetitive stress injuries, and they can happen on just about anything. Yretha Silete suffered a similar injury a couple of months ago, when she collided with another skater in training and fell at a bad angle. Athletes in other sports tear their ACLs, and they certainly don't perform the sort of jumps skaters do
    Last edited by Buttercup; 10-20-2012 at 01:25 AM.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    No Serpentine, I don't think so. I really don't, but you could ask Dick Button. I think there is a great deal of difference between 3 revolutions and 4 revolutions in terms of physics, (energy, physical impact, training, strategy, you name it). It's probably not that hard to determine also whether injuries increased as more and more athletes began mastering triples. It took quite a while for triples to become standard in the sport after the first one was landed, about 30 years, if I'm not mistaken.
    I don't understand why you're going so far out of your way to disagree with my every post. Just enjoying and being excited by a skater reaching new heights. Sorry for starters if I've inadvertently said anything in the past hour or so that offended you.

    Now, onto skating injuries. Most injuries from jumps come from improper technique and forced landings. If a skater had poor technique or is insecure in his/her landings, it obviously goes without saying the the difference in the magnitude of injuries is greater in a quad than in a triple. Hence, yes, the number of injuries tends to be greater when trends in skating shift such that a skater feels compelled to put in a jump that isn't 100% secure (and this applies on historical scales looking at when a new jump is becoming standard on the competitive scene, but also on an individual scale, when juniors suddenly push new technical content when they go senior). Looking at Yuzuru's quad and having seen many skaters attempt new jumps, I'm not worried.

    Also, I don't get why the Dick Button reference is relevant here.
    Last edited by SerpentineSteps; 10-20-2012 at 01:31 AM.

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