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Thread: 2012 Skate America Men's Short Program

  1. #106
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    Thanks for the info Buttercup. Okay, as far as injuries related to quads (or just jumping in general): Elvis, Plushenko, Joubert, and plenty of others, I'm sure.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    All the American men have to show they can consistently land quads. But seriously U.S. fed politically has at least the last 10 to 15 years had to play catch up with Canadian, Russian and now Japanese feds.

    Hanyu came in as current World bronze medal holder, and Kozuka has rep too, so it's a given they came in rated higher in the judges minds than all the American guys. But seriously, Abbott should be talked about in the same breath with the top guys. IMHO, Abbott is a better all-around skater. Again, he needs to show it consistently and since he has faltered in big moments, that rep has helped to hold Abbott down. But also, U.S. fed is often clueless politically.
    Give credit where credit is due. Both Hanyu and Kozuka earned their points. Tonight, they were better than Abbott regardless whether he is a better all around skater. And regarding Kozuka, he had a dismal season last year--he didn't come in with much rep.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dots View Post
    Really? I think it's very in character. It makes him look rough...
    Nothing could make him look rough

  4. #109
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    Kozuka has more rep than Abbott, along with a World silver medal. Just because I think Abbott is better (and he needs to consistently prove it) does not mean I don't give Hanyu and Kozuka credit.

    And Serpentine, just because I don't agree with all of your points, doesn't mean I am "offended" by what you are saying. Figure skating is if nothing else, always about debate. No one is going to agree 100% of the time.

    Great that you are not worried for Hanyu. He does have the quad down, as does Orser's other charge, Fernandez. They both came to Orser with solid quads. Still, injuries are unpredictable. That doesn't mean Hanyu will necessarily suffer serious injury during his career -- let's hope not. I enjoy Hanyu's skating, but I'm just not a huge fan at this point. Plus, I do not like CoP. Of course, it makes no difference if I like it or don't like.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Thanks for the info Buttercup. Okay, as far as injuries related to quads (or just jumping in general): Elvis, Plushenko, Joubert, and plenty of others, I'm sure.
    Well according to that logic, no skaters should attempt new content. Nobody's disagreeing that jumps can cause injuries. What we are disagreeing with is that Yuzuru shouldn't have attempted his content due to the irreversible damage argument you were making a few comments back.

    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    Give credit where credit is due. Both Hanyu and Kozuka earned their points. Tonight, they were better than Abbott regardless whether he is a better all around skater. And regarding Kozuka, he had a dismal season last year--he didn't come in with much rep.
    I concur. Going to bed excited to have seen a record-breaking skate.

    EDIT: Oops, before I go to bed (just because flawed logic really bothers me, if it wasn't already clear ):
    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    And Serpentine, just because I don't agree with all of your points, doesn't mean I am "offended" by what you are saying. Figure skating is if nothing else, always about debate. No one is going to agree 100% of the time.
    Asking someone to agree with oneself 100% of the time is not the same as asking someone not to disagree with oneself 100% of the time.
    Last edited by SerpentineSteps; 10-20-2012 at 01:41 AM.

  6. #111
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    Now who's getting offended as well as saying something I didn't say. I never said "irreversible damage," just serious injury is always a factor for athletes, especially over time, and I'm not just talking about Hanyu. Your argument was that people said the same thing about triple jumps being dangerous. And I disagreed with you.

    Let's move on. We disagree on some minor points.

    Just because I state my opinions, does not mean I'm "asking" anyone to agree with me.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 10-20-2012 at 01:44 AM.

  7. #112
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Thanks for the info Buttercup. Okay, as far as injuries related to quads (or just jumping in general): Elvis, Plushenko, Joubert, and plenty of others, I'm sure.
    Joubert's foot spiking injuries were on 3Lz attempts - I think Kurt Browning tweeted after the second one that he'd been through that, too. Joubert has had back and knee issues, but I've never seen that attributed to any specific jumps, just the wear and tear of a long career (he's now in his 12th senior season).

    Athletes in many sports do things that the human body wasn't quite designed for, and medical issues ensue - think of gymnasts and their various injuries (e.g. Mustafina tore her ACL on a vault), or baseball pitchers and Tommy John surgery. Pushing your body to the limits is what athletes do, it's a part of sport. The key thing is to have correct technique, which should minimize the potential risk - but even then, some things you can't control.

  8. #113
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    [QUOTE=Art&Sport;667538]Kozuka has more rep than Abbott, along with a World silver medal. Just because I think Abbott is better (and he needs to consistently prove it) does not mean I don't give Hanyu and Kozuka credit.[/QUO

    Well you had me fooled then--you keep bringing up politics and "their strong Federation"--it sure sounded like you thought that was the only reason they outscored Abbott.

    Anyway, good luck to all of them in their FS!

  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Just because I state my opinions, does not mean I'm "asking" anyone to agree with me.
    Again, no, that was me I was referring to. You claimed that I was asking you to "agree 100% of the time", so I was pointing out the logical fallacy of equating that to my comment that you were "disagreeing 100% of the time". Hence, the "asking someone to agree with oneself 100% of the time is not the same as asking someone not to disagree with oneself 100% of the time". (Besides, if you recall, that was pretext for me to preemptively apologize for something that had apparently offended you and not an attack in any way.)

    OK, enough logic-policing for today (especially since other seem to have taken on the cause as well?). Night, and may everyone have the skate they were hoping for tomorrow!
    Last edited by SerpentineSteps; 10-20-2012 at 01:55 AM.

  10. #115
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    I don't disagree with anything you say in your above post Buttercup. But surely you are not denying that quads in and of themselves take an enormous physical and mental toll on skaters. That extra revolution is not a walk in the park, it's extremely difficult. IceNetwork had a very good article over the summer with interesting quotes from skaters re the difficulties of mastering the quad, and what makes it so difficult.

    I think it's impossible to every time out have exact technique on every jump. It's the nature of the sport. Being consistent on jump technique is always a work in progress. That's why Plushenko is so amazing. Hanyu definitely may be heading in the same direction ... i.e., legendary career.

  11. #116
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Kozuka was really underscored, I would have put him at about 90 points and very close to Hanyu (whom I would have put at about 92 points). I'd actually have Kozuka slightly ahead on the PCS...Hanyu had more transitions but I think Kozuka was a little better in edge quality, choreography, and interpretation. His spread eagle was deeper, his movements felt a bit more natural (some of Hanyu's movements looked a bit more "rehearsed" to me), and his movements seemed to be created FOR the music a little more than Hanyu's.

    A fine start to the season for Jeremy, but he really needs to do a clean SP with a Quad and everything else in it, which is something he hasn't ever been able to do yet in his career.

    Nice to see Armin got credit for a rotated Quad, even though he fell.

    Not a good day for the Czech men at all.

    LOL @ Razzano's skating, as always.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    I don't disagree with anything you say in your above post Buttercup. But surely you are not denying that quads in and of themselves take an enormous physical and mental toll on skaters. That extra revolution is not a walk in the park, it's extremely difficult. IceNetwork had a very good article over the summer with interesting quotes from skaters re the difficulties of mastering the quad, and what makes it so difficult.
    I absolutely agree that quads are difficult, that skaters deserve great credit for doing them, and that the harder the jumps, the greater the risk. I don't know if quads are necessarily the most risky jump health-wise, though, because they tend to be quad toes. Aren't loops (and lutzes) more problematic in terms of the type of strain they put on the body, even if fewer revolutions are done?

    Back to the actual event: I wonder what Evan Lysacek thought, if he watched the men's SPs. I don't think he could have competed with what Hanyu did today - even on home ice, even with an OGM bonus.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    Well you had me fooled then--you keep bringing up politics and "their strong Federation"--it sure sounded like you thought that was the only reason they outscored Abbott.

    Anyway, good luck to all of them in their FS!
    Politics is always a factor in figure skating. But of course, there are lots of factors involved, especially how well skaters perform on the ice. I believe Abbott deserved even higher marks in PCS, CH, TR, IN and even PE. Even Armin deserved higher scores, IMHO. It's just that Armin does not have much rep internationally, in addition to not having a strong fed actually politicking for him. Both Armin and Abbott have to land the quads even moreso.

  14. #119
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    Congrats guys! Hanyu and Kozuka were superb! Chan will be in trouble...

    About the injury, Hanyu is very thin,very slight, maybe he is less vulnerable.
    Last edited by plushyfan; 10-20-2012 at 02:13 AM.

  15. #120
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    Quads are risky because they are difficult physically and mentally. They require a great deal of endurance and mental energy. The quad is not the actual name of a jump, it is only an extra revolution, so yes, the toe jump is the easiest jump in terms of difficulty, then flip, loop, lutz and axel. I doubt we will ever see a quad axel performed, and we'll certainly never see quintuple jumps -- physically impossible, IMO. I know that was likely said once about the 4-minute mile too.

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