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Thread: 2012 Skate America Ice Dance FD

  1. #106
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    D/V losing Base Value to some Russian kids B/S is a good slap to their reputation. Now it's getting even clearer for what exactly Igor was responsible for. Maybe D/W will change the coach for the Olympic year. Who knows.

  2. #107
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    My thoughts about the FD event:
    D/W: overscored. I have to say that The Bat, Tango and Phantom programs were A LOT better than this; I don't like the music, the choreography and the costumes. And I don't understand how could a judge give them a 10 for the TR mark?? Seriously, there were good transitions, but they were not "perfection", I think everybody agrees about this! I hope it will improve...
    B/S: finally, this program has been appreciated! And it truly deserves it, because it's a masterpiece! The coaching change was just the best thing to do!
    W/P: I was quite shocked when I saw their score, because I expected something like 51-52 for the PCS; there isn't this big difference between them and D/W, this program is fantastic, I don't understand the ones who say that it's emotionless, it's brilliant! I LOVE the music and the choreography, I hope they will polish the elements...

  3. #108
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    Well, I hate to say this as a longtime D/W fan, but . . . I don't love their new FD. This is the first time ever that I've felt this way. I've loved all their senior FDs until now. But this one just feels generic. It's similar to their Phantom of the Opera FD but not nearly as good. The music cuts are disjointed, the choreography and theme unoriginal, and even the costumes don't seem right. (Charlie's is too plain & modern compared to Meryl's). Honestly this feels like the kind of program you'd see from a lower-ranked team, not D/W. Seems like the strategy is to play up the "romantic" element to compete with V/M in that arena, but I don't know if this is the best approach. I don't think so.

    I do however love their SD! It's lovely and light and very fun to watch. And it's different for them, which makes it interesting.

    When a team has been around as long as D/W, they really need to continue to offer variety in new programs, otherwise they run the risk of looking dated and flat. Pechalat & Bourzat have done this well over the years--although I haven't loved all their programs, they do try different styles to keep things fresh. Certainly my biggest criticism of V/M over the years has been the relative lack of variety and risktaking in their programs. Now it looks like Meryl & Charlie may be falling into a rut too. This, from the team that brought us Bollywood, is disappointing.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by eyria View Post
    Well, I hate to say this as a longtime D/W fan, but . . . I don't love their new FD. This is the first time ever that I've felt this way. I've loved all their senior FDs until now. But this one just feels generic.
    I must concur. Everything was completed well, and the program is constructed just fine. But it DOES feel like something that any strong dance team could skate to. (I'm picturing the top five or six couples in the world skating this program--I can picture it easily, and they all look just fine doing it.) Maybe it will grow and become something special, but right now, it's serviceable and not much else. That's not to say that they won't win the top prize with it, however. . . .

    What I really DON'T like is the way they're pushing this "connection." Their connection was just fine before! They're not lovey-dovey, and that's okay! When they try to portray lovey-dovey, it looks SO artificial and, to be honest, embarrassing. Charlie picking up Meryl and spinning her out to take their bows turned my stomach.

  5. #110
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    D/W spent the first 40 seconds of their program posing and virtually standing still and the placement of the spin so early in the program right after their opening posing doesn't help either. It gave the impression that the skate had a slow start and not much skating. Think of it this way, a FD that is 240 seconds in total - they spent 1/6 of it on posing right from the top. Rightly or wrongly, there could be a perception that they weren't fully utilizing their time on ice. Then, after the first 40 seconds, it came across as though they were speed skaters - not ice dancers - running across the ice as though they were rushing to finish first in a speed skating competition. But during their rush, details and nuances of the program suffered. Because D/W are well known for their speed and power, doing so can lead to some people perceiving this program as being very similar to their past work, as has already been pointed out even by D/W fans.

    Fundamentally, D/W needs to have defined character on ice. Their interpretation of the Bollywood selection was very successful because they have finely defined their characters in that OD. Looking at their number 1 competition, V/M have done so well because they almost always have well defined characters on ice and often lead people to speculate whether or not they were a couple even though they aren't. With D/W, hardly ever anyone asks if they were a couple and it should be no coincidence. Some people can portray romantic type of dances better than others, just the chemistry of the couple. D/W have other strenghts, there is no need for them to imitate a style that doesn't suit them. Their SD this year is a good example of how their personality can be enhanced with the right vehicle. Perhaps the departure of Igor affects this team more than anyone else; there has always been a speculation that Igor was closer to this team while Marina is closer to V/M - like two parents each having their favorite. We shall see next week when V/M takes the ice.

  6. #111
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    D/W had such an amazing FD last year, it was hard to come up with something as brilliant as Die Fledermaus. I liked their new FD though, especially the end with those dramatic lifts. Her dress is, as usual, simply gorgeous!
    W/P have the best FD this season! I really like the music, concept,everything. I am a new fan(never have been before, the first time I kind of liked them was at 2012 Worlds)
    B/S have an interesting FD, I love the first part but hate the Tosca part. It looks disjointed. I like what Zhulin has done with them and I agree they needed a change but I liked something in their old school skating and old fashioned programs. Really liked their Chess SD, very dramatic. But the judges and fans want modern, so it is what it is. It's true they needed help on the technical side and the improvement is obvious.
    And now we wait to see the much anticipated Carmen! I hope it's going to be great!

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    D/V losing Base Value to some Russian kids B/S is a good slap to their reputation.
    I think base value is less about reputation as it is determine by the technical panel which is a lot more impartial than judges. It's more about the design and execution of the program. I think GOE and PC score are more subjective and reputation plays a bigger part and D/W was scored higher than B/S.

    D/W usually beat V/M early in the season. In fact D/W beat V/W in every GPF but then got beaten by V/M (except when V/M did not skate the whole season) in world and oly. It may be a good thing for D/W as they may be stretching themselves by not just doing what's easy and got it right off the bat for them.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Was this the first time that you'd seen BS's FD? Because it takes some time to get used to. The first time I saw it, I thought it was the weirdest thing and hated it. On subsequent viewings of it, I've grown to love it. And it's gotten better since they debuted it.
    It's the second time I've seen B/S's FD. I thought it was weird the first time too lol.

  9. #114
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    I really enjoyed W/P program! I became a fan of them!!! I like B/S, but totally incomprehensible is the music editing ... Moricone and Puccini?
    D/W.....i agree with them who don't like this program.

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    It's the second time I've seen B/S's FD. I thought it was weird the first time too lol.
    Well to each their own. I think that its inherent composition makes it an FD that people will either like or dislike, but won't be indifferent about.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by fwsf View Post
    I think base value is less about reputation as it is determine by the technical panel which is a lot more impartial than judges. It's more about the design and execution of the program.
    My point exactly. D/W are way more titled skaters than B/S. So definitely they should have had a higher BV but they failed. That can impact their reputaion, with GOE and PCS in the future as well.

  12. #117
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    The Germans were Zombies come to life, the Russians portray a druggie she is trying to rescue but instead she falls into his drug world. The Canadians were sloppy in their FD, D&W also have work to do on their FD, but I think it has potential - the music is beautiful.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    My point exactly. D/W are way more titled skaters than B/S. So definitely they should have had a higher BV but they failed. That can impact their reputaion, with GOE and PCS in the future as well.
    And they & W&P had a higher base value in the SD than B&S.

    Just to be clear, in dance, all teams, as far as one can tell, have the same planned base value. They all plan for all level 4's. What is listed as the base value is the base value of what they actually were credited with by the tech panel. There's nothing like what you see in singles where a skater can flutz every time and you will see a Lutz with an edge call on the protocol.

    In the FD, D&W lost a level in the twizzles (a difference in base value of 1 point). The day previous in the SD, they got level 4, and the highest score total for a twizzle sequence in the competition (7.33). They fact that Charlie tripped over himself, recovered and kept twizzling without putting a foot down (something that he does from time to time) doesn't affect the value the tech panel (nor the judges) will put on D&W's twizzles the next time they see it. For that matter, B&S lost a level on their twizzles in the SD. It didn't mean that somehow they got dinged for them the next day. On the contrary, In the FD, B&S got 6.92 for their twizzles, and a level 4.

    What D&W and Zoueva should be concerned about is the circulaR step which got a level 2. I happen to like those steps, but I would not be at all surprised to see them changed significantly the next time we see this FD at NHK. Otherwise, I see that the judges, who do not worry about the level, didn't see anything wrong with this step (if there were a visible stumble, you would normally see some judges at least giving them a zero GOE or -1 GOE for that circular step, and the lowest thing I see is +1. Consequently, I suspect that they are going to have to do some redesign on this circular step, I'm sad to say.

    And these are exactly the kinds of adjustments teams are always making after the first viewing of a program by the judges & tech panel.

    Last year, V&M completely changed a lift after the tech panel at Finlandia gave it a level 2. That level 2 did not mean that any one thought they were unable to do a level 4 lift-it just meant that in that tech panel's opinion, that piece of choreography didn't meet the level 2 guidelines.

    (This BTW, is why I like to see all the teams hit a Senior B before going to the GP. They get a chance to make adjustments early in the season, if adjustments are needed.)
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 10-23-2012 at 12:23 PM.

  14. #119
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    http://theimagearsenal.com/2012/kent...e-america.html

    Here's a photo done by a friend of mine (he's a freelance photographer and he took this one for Reuters) of one of D/W's lifts in the free dance. Their lifts in this program were the highlight for me. Yes, they were not perfect, but are people really expecting an instant masterpiece this early in the season?

    I think we'll see some great improvements by NHK. More comments later.

  15. #120
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    That's a great photo, Mrs. P!!

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