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Thread: Rachel Flatt Competes Injured Again

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    It works exactly as it sets out to. When Christina skates clean and Adelina makes mistakes, that doesn't automatically make Christina's skating skills superior. It means she executed her elements better, and that is reflected in the TES scores.
    It's interesting reading some of the negative feedback about Adelina.

    Anyone could she she made a few mistakes - but aspects of her skating are superior. Her spins are not just beautiful but difficult. For such a young skater she has beautiful lines and extensions,,,,,,and to me seems very musical.

    A few have said she has "little jumps" but I think she has the biggest jumps since Yuna.

    Anyway - I think some fans are so impatient they expect perfection from her and nothing less will do.

    Adelina - and the others - are skating under a challenging system. This early in the season we typically see few clean programs.

    Christina was a pleasant surprise - and hope she keeps it going.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    One of the problems with ISU judging is that the judges tend to reputation-score: skaters who have achieved high international results in the past will get higher PCS scores than skaters who so far haven't reached the same level internationally.

    Sotnikova is a former JGPF and JW champion who won two medals in the GP last season. Ashley Wagner is the 2012 4CC champion who finished 4th at 2012 Worlds. Christina Gao hasn't done much internationally since she moved up to Senior competition.

    Judges will tend to score past winners high even if they don't skate completely cleanly. That is not the way the system was supposed to work, as judges should be scoring based on what they see in front of them in the moment, not on what the skater has done in the past. But that is the reality.
    And this was one of the major things the NJS claimed to fix over the old 6.0 system...FAIL.

    I dunno - I hate to switch topics here - but I just wonder what would happen if PCS (where most of the subjectivity comes from) were to be tossed out completely. That's right, ONLY the TES score counts...at least for the short program.
    Last edited by R.D.; 10-23-2012 at 10:39 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    And this was one of the major things the NJS claimed to fix over the old 6.0 system...FAIL.

    I dunno - I hate to switch topics here - but I just wonder what would happen if PCS (where most of the subjectivity comes from) were to be tossed out completely. That's right, ONLY the TES score counts...at least for the short program.
    If only the TES score counted, would you even need a program? It would just be doing the elements in the time allotted, and just standing around resting in between.

  4. #64
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    I would retire if I was her as she is already an Olympian. The last year or so, her skating is going down hill with recurring injuries and Standord work load.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    And this was one of the major things the NJS claimed to fix over the old 6.0 system...FAIL.

    I dunno - I hate to switch topics here - but I just wonder what would happen if PCS (where most of the subjectivity comes from) were to be tossed out completely. That's right, ONLY the TES score counts...at least for the short program.
    good experiment, but GOE seems to be one of the things most easily swayed by objectivity. For yu-na to get +3's on her medicore layback spins was always a glaring indicator of Orser's politicking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I think we will be seeing more & more of skaters skating injured. Here's why:

    The new minimum TES rules for 4CC's, Worlds & Europeans pretty much assure that all skaters who have a single assignment from their Fed, whether to a Senior B or a GP, pretty much have to skate regardless of their physical condition. They have to take advantage of that one assignment to try to make their qualificaiton.

    For example, Pang & Tong were skating injured at Skate America (Tong has knee problems), as was Jeremy Abbott (who is having a serious back problem). P&T were absolutely lovely, particularly in their exhibition program. Jeremy was not particularly lovely, and someone else could have used the spot...however, Jeremy needed it himself to get the qualifying TES for Worlds and 4CC's. He got the SP score for both Worlds & 4CC's, but not the LP TES for Worlds.

    Douglas Razzano got the LP score, but not the SP score for Worlds. His SP did not qualify for either event. I have no idea whether he was injured, but he skated a dreadful SP.
    I suspect Flatt has had good training at times, and then the old injuries are re-aggravated. I am going to give her credit...she is honest about what is going on...and doesn't cop out and give an excuse like "I have no idea what happened out there". As she works with Justin Dillon, who does alot of work for USFS, Dillon would know if she is too injured to compete. Flatt had a good 3F-2T on the SP warm up, but looked to have a problem picking in the program. I think that was the same problem in the LP; first 3F was fine, second flip....she seemed to have picking problem again. And because she no longer does 3Lz, I am going to assume it is just too painful. Ramping up training must cause the problems to reappear.

    I am curious as to what kind of help she has gotten over the last couple of seasons from USFS in figuring out what is wrong with her feet/legs. IIRC, back at 2010 NHK Trophy was the first time her team mentioned problems with tendonitits, which continued thru out the entire season for her including Skate America and post Nationals. It seems that she had it most of last season, and I am sure she had sufficient time off post 2012 Nationals. From the interview response she gave this past weekend, it is readily apparent that Flatt has been seen many times by physicians/PTs....but something is not healing or constantly re-aggravated....and they just can't figure out what is causing the problem.

    I think the enthusiasm Flatt once had for skating has been diminished by the constant injury issues. Again, I give her credit for trying to push thru it. Can you imagine ...everytime you think your body has recovered, you ramp up your training, and then your body betrays you again? I know lots of runners, including myself, who think their hamstrings have healed from a strain/pull....they start running/training again, and when their running goes above 20-25 miles a week, the injury reasserts itself. I am going to think this might parallel Flatt's issues....she starts ramping up her training when the injury seems to be healed, and then it reappears when the training intensity is high. And, that probably contributes to posts about her appearance...she probably can't do the off ice training either when the feet/legs betray her.

    She is incredibly persistent. She has tried to overcome nagging injuries, and inspite of what alot of this discussion has been about, you have to admire her desire to try and overcome what obviously has been incredibly frustrating for her. No athlete likes to be held back by an injury, much less something that, as Flatt has described in her post competition interview...no one has been able to correctly diagnose the problem. I suspect the symptoms have been treated, and I am sure they have had Xrays and MRIs... but the cause of the chronic injury has not been diagnosed according to Flatt. Are boots to blame? Years of over training jumps? I am sad for her, because for several years, she was the most consistent USFS lady, with 7 triple long programs for several seasons, with many others getting by with less. I think Flatt's coaching team has tried to go down the same road that Kostner did a few years ago while she was recovering from her leg injury, which fortunately for Carolina, was diagnosed.....do the jumps that do not aggravate the injury.

    I agree with DorisPulaski.....I think COP is to blame for the increase in injury rate in skaters, and Flatt has always been known as an athletic skater, and I suspect the years of jumping (and the training style of her former coach, Zakrajsek, as we know...think Josh Farris) has beaten down her body. She has back problems as well. At age 20...with a body that is not so forgiving anymore....it is sad. These are the aches and pains that runners know after 30 years of running...in their 50's. Not as a 20 year old. So sad....

  7. #67
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    ^thoughtful post! I too feel for Rachael and all the skaters; their bodies take a huge tool. I'm not an insider to the sport, but from what I can tell, it is not always obvious how to figure out or know when one isn't pushing enough, when one needs to push harder through pain to get to a higher level, when pain indicates an underlying problem or injury and so forth. Additionally, we have heard of cases where the pain doesn't even manifest until later...

    And it is really hard to imagine - but breaks my heart - to think of these young people with such physical distress and pain.

    I wish Rachael all the best and just for the record, really like her sp and dress as well as her LP.

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    While I wouldn't be surprised, I wonder if there is hard data that supports an increase in rates of skater injuries since the onset of NJS.

    As for Flatt, that's basically it. Chronic injuries coupled with school taking over? Done.

    If she truly enjoys to skate, she should at least continue to skate in select shows. I think she still brings something to the table (ice) that is enjoyable to watch. But she is not competitive any more - let someone who is take her place.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Fair enough - and my comment - taken out of context here - has been resolved.

    Nebelhorn is indeed an ISU senior Intl event.
    And Mirai did win it.

    At the moment the American public has not embraced Ashley or any of our other current skaters.

    Maybe the difference between us is that I remember when US skaters were embraced by the American public.

    To think Ashley or any of the others (yes, that includes Mirai ) have the recognition that Peggy, Janet, Dorothy, Brian B, Michelle, Sasha and countless others received over the years is simply not true.

    It doesn't matter to me if you are American or from somewhere else - perceptions may differ but reality is the same. Sorry if you don't like it or feel differently about the state of skating in USA.

    For what it's worth -I don't think of you as part of the "general American public" but rather as a pretty serious and devoted skating fan.

    Understanding the difference might make my point more clear to you and others.

    BTW , I like Ashley well enough and typically like skaters trained by Mr. Nicks. Ashley seems up to it...seems to want it and besides training hard she has been making a few promotional appearances which I applaud her for.

    If Ashley does well in Sochi her public profile will definitely get a big boost - and will be well deserved.

    For now she is still relatively unknown in USA -and probably better known in Japan.
    Thank you for your reply, janetfan. I was glad also to read your positive comments about Wagner in another thread.

    I do remember the extreme popularity among the general public [PATGP ] of Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, and Brian Boitano.
    BUT according to my recollections, Olympic gold is what triggered the mad love affairs in those cases.

    Wagner has won the US title only once, and has yet to appear in the Olympic spotlight.
    At this point, comparing her to the Olympic champions in terms of PATGP is a matter of apples vs. oranges.
    As you say yourself, a strong showing at Sochi could dramatically increase her PATGP.

    In my opinion, Kwan and Cohen never were in the same league of PATGP as the Olympic champs -- although I believe the reason is the decline in popularity of the entire sport among American spectators, which you and I both regret.
    You and I have discussed previously our mutual dismay that the likable Davis/White do not have more PATGP. They have much greater longevity as US champions than Wagner, plus Olympic silver and World gold + silver, but their PATGP leaves something to be desired.
    In your original post, your opinion seemed to be that Wagner is uniquely deficient through some fault of her own when it comes to PATGP. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
    In any case, the reality is that all American skaters of the present day are in the same not-so-visible boat. Unfortunately, Wagner has plenty of good company.

    [BTW, I was not the one disputing the stature of Nebelhorn -- that was someone else.]

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden411 View Post
    Thank you for your reply, janetfan. I was glad also to read your positive comments about Wagner in another thread.

    I do remember the extreme popularity among the general public [PATGP ] of Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, and Brian Boitano.
    BUT according to my recollections, Olympic gold is what triggered the mad love affairs in those cases.

    Wagner has won the US title only once, and has yet to appear in the Olympic spotlight.
    At this point, comparing her to the Olympic champions in terms of PATGP is a matter of apples vs. oranges.
    As you say yourself, a strong showing at Sochi could dramatically increase her PATGP.

    In my opinion, Kwan and Cohen never were in the same league of PATGP as the Olympic champs -- although I believe the reason is the decline in popularity of the entire sport among American spectators, which you and I both regret.
    You and I have discussed previously our mutual dismay that the likable Davis/White do not have more PATGP. They have much greater longevity as US champions than Wagner, plus Olympic silver and World gold + silver, but their PATGP leaves something to be desired.
    In your original post, your opinion seemed to be that Wagner is uniquely deficient through some fault of her own when it comes to PATGP. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
    In any case, the reality is that all American skaters of the present day are in the same not-so-visible boat. Unfortunately, Wagner has plenty of good company.

    [BTW, I was not the one disputing the stature of Nebelhorn -- that was someone else.]
    Just a quick thought - Janet Lynn never won Worlds or the OGM and she was more popular than all of today's skaters combined - and by a very wide margin.

    I think you underestimate Sasha's popularity and name recognition in USA. She has carried skating in USA since Michelle umm... cough "retired"

    Being the headliner for SOI for half a decade after winning Silver at the Olympics along with her "eye-popping"style is something many Americans remember.

    Sorry if I can't say the same for Ashley - but don't forget - at Ashley's age Sasha had won alot of major Intl medals and was seen much more often on TV.

    Sasha was very well known and embraced by the American public in a way Ashley has not been.

    I agree with what you said - there are circumstances .... but there are also results.

    And then there was also Mr Skating himslef - Dick Button - who never stopped gushing about Sasha.

    Ashley and Sasha are not really very comparable IMO.....but Ashley is not done yet - in fact it looks like she might just be ready to establish herself.

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    Sorry, I can't agree that Kwan never reached the level of the Olympic winners. Kwan is STILL the most recognized female figure skater among the American public. Sasha never reached Kwan's level of recognition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    I think we will be seeing more & more of skaters skating injured. Here's why:

    The new minimum TES rules for 4CC's, Worlds & Europeans pretty much assure that all skaters who have a single assignment from their Fed, whether to a Senior B or a GP, pretty much have to skate regardless of their physical condition. They have to take advantage of that one assignment to try to make their qualificaiton.

    For example, Pang & Tong were skating injured at Skate America (Tong has knee problems), as was Jeremy Abbott (who is having a serious back problem).
    Jeremy Abbott does not need minimum TES this season, she has it (for Worlds) from Worlds-2012(FS) and WTT-2012(SP).
    He skated at GP event regardless of his state because if he couldn't do it he could have only one GP Event with no chance of Final.

    I believe that hi-level skaters have no real problem of minimum TES.
    For example, at seven JGP Events this season were 10 girls from USA and 7 girls from Russia (in USA and Russia technical level of girls is high).
    They kompeted for medals and Final, not for TES minimum.
    16 of these 17 girls earned TES minimum for WJC, 9 for Worlds (not needed for them because of too young age or no chance to qualify for Worlds).

    Minimum TES is problem for skaters of countries with no so high skating level. They learn and perform at competitions elements too complicated for them for chance to earn minimum. Too complicated elements (or too many complicated elements, as a result - fatique) - mistakes and injuries.

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    Sorry if I can't say the same for Ashley - but don't forget - at Ashley's age Sasha had won alot of major Intl medals and was seen much more often on TV.
    Don't forget, Wagner is peaking at a later age than Cohen did. The latter basically made a splash almost immediately while it took Wagner 4 years to finally hit her stride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    Don't forget, Wagner is peaking at a later age than Cohen did. The latter basically made a splash almost immediately while it took Wagner 4 years to finally hit her stride.
    From 14 to 21 is more like seven years, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    She doesn't even seem to be bothered by her low placements, as if she's just happy to be there participating. It really does seem like a waste of a spot at our country's premier international event. Having said that, I blame the USFSA for making this decision. She basically delivers what she has been in the past few years, so the placement is no surprise. It's a shame because the USFSA lost a great opportunity to showcase Gracie at one of the only skating events with network coverage.
    She really hasn't seemed to be bothered by low placement in years. When you post disastrous scores like that (SA short program) and then shrug your shoulders in a "whatever" gesture, well it looks like she doesn't care or even want to be there. She had a good, if short, career and seems dedicated to her studies. I'd agree it's time for her to move on.

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