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Thread: Rachel Flatt Competes Injured Again

  1. #106
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    With all these problems she really has no business taking a GP spot. She did peak at nationals last year and may do so again this year, but she does not seem to be at all interested in being competitive at these other events. If they didn't give Armin a GP spot after finishing 4th there's no reason they should have to give Rachel anymore if she doesn't medal.
    Ashley got two events last season despite a 6th place finish at Nationals. Caroline Zhang got Skate America last season after finishing 12th at Nationals and only scored a few points better (140.79) than Rachael (136.09) at that event.

    It's not out of the ordinary for Skate America spots to be offered to struggling or lower-ranked skaters, such as Forte in 2011.

    I agree Armin got screwed and deserved a GP spot, but that doesn't mean that it was out of line that Rachael got one.

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    She used to have quite a nice layback when she was younger -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hvYIYkNjfM#t=0m46s

    I think the bad layback came from a back injury as well.

    So I think her team needs to figure out a way to do a better layback to deal with some of those challenges...
    Even better photo of Flatt's layback from her FB page...04/05 season. IIRC, Flatt had a bad fall on the ice training before what would have been her initial JGP season, autumn 2006, but had to forgo the JGP that year due to the injury, and went in '07 insead. IIRC, she has several bulging discs in her lower back.
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...type=3&theater

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Ashley got two events last season despite a 6th place finish at Nationals. Caroline Zhang got Skate America last season after finishing 12th at Nationals and only scored a few points better (140.79) than Rachael (136.09) at that event.

    It's not out of the ordinary for Skate America spots to be offered to struggling or lower-ranked skaters, such as Forte in 2011.

    I agree Armin got screwed and deserved a GP spot, but that doesn't mean that it was out of line that Rachael got one.
    She should have given up her spot.

    She cannot do a layback. She is slow. She has lost some of her jumps. She is just not in competitive shape.

    If the USFSA wants to continue sending a skater to events who doesn't intend to compete in any sort of peak condition I suppose that's their prerogative but as a fan of the sport it bothers me a lot.

  4. #109
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    She should have given up her spot.

    She cannot do a layback. She is slow. She has lost some of her jumps. She is just not in competitive shape.

    If the USFSA wants to continue sending a skater to events who doesn't intend to compete in any sort of peak condition I suppose that's their prerogative but as a fan of the sport it bothers me a lot.
    Where do you get the idea that she doesn't intend or doesn't want to compete? Her injuries make her unable to compete as well as she has in the past. Big difference.

    Perhaps a case could be made that she should have sat out this season and recovered from her injuries instead of competing through them. However I don't think it's a fact that she doesn't care or is happy with her current competitive shape.

    We have no clue what her motives and reasoning to compete at Skate America. There could be a whole host of reasons she and her team decided that she should be here or some benefit they got out of this competition. She is not the first U.S. Skater to do relatively poorly at Skate America, nor she will be the last.

    No her Skate America performace was not the best and she has a LOT of work to do. But she still stay upright at this competition and did six triple jumps throughout the whole competition, including a triple flip and four others in the free. Also while she didn't get a ton of +GOE (that's where she lost a lot of points), she still garnered positive or neutral GOE in the free in all her elements including her spins.

    That's a whole lot better than Caroline Zhang's FS from last year's Skate America where she only had two clean, non UR triples and fell three times and whose TES was nearly 10 points below Rachael's at this year's event.

    I'm not trying to pick on Caroline -- nor would I have said after the fact that she should have given up her SA spot last year.

    As always YMMV, but I'm just not that bothered that Rachael decided to compete when others have made the same decision and done just as, or even more, poorly.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-25-2012 at 05:38 PM.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Where do you get the idea that she doesn't intend or doesn't want to compete? Her injuries make her unable to compete as well as she has in the past. Big difference.
    I said she doesn't intent to compete in peak condition. Competing when she is so far off her peak does her no good, does the USFSA no good, and as fans we lose out because that spot could go to someone else in fighting shape. I think back to Kimmie Meissner who didn't compete because she wasn't in top form and it cost her a bye to Nationals. That, to me, is the right thing to do if you can't come to a competition at your best. It's becoming a serious problem with these skaters competing injured and it's not an excuse that since others do it Rachel should. None of these girls should and it's time the USFSA addresses this problem.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I said she doesn't intent to compete in peak condition. Competing when she is so far off her peak does her no good, does the USFSA no good, and as fans we lose out because that spot could go to someone else in fighting shape. I think back to Kimmie Meissner who didn't compete because she wasn't in top form and it cost her a bye to Nationals. That, to me, is the right thing to do if you can't come to a competition at your best. It's becoming a serious problem with these skaters competing injured and it's not an excuse that since others do it Rachel should. None of these girls should and it's time the USFSA addresses this problem.
    That's a fair point. As I said, I can definitely see the case where Rachael might have been better off sitting out this season or just focusing on regionals and sectionals instead. I think she would have easily qualified, and if she didn't, well then she really wouldn't be ready to compete.

    On the other hand, I can see how USFSA might want to give other ladies a chance to qualify through the system and Rachael was one spot from a bye, so perhaps this was their way of working things out.

    And I agree that USFSA has to address this problem. If USFSA gives no guidelines RE: competing under injury, then skaters like Rachael, as doris pointed out earlier in this post, will opt to compete for a host of reasons, be it getting the minimum TES score (she was only .56 points away from doing so in the FS) or getting ranking points.

    I guess we'll see how she does at her Senior B next weekend.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-25-2012 at 07:19 PM.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    ...I think back to Kimmie Meissner who didn't compete because she wasn't in top form and it cost her a bye to Nationals. That, to me, is the right thing to do if you can't come to a competition at your best.
    ...and I remember many posters saying she should have gone anyway, even if she could only do doubles, so that she could have an easy route to Nationals. Funny how general skating fan opinions change once it involves someone who is well-liked

    I agree that was the right thing to do. Same with Kwan pulling out of the '06 Olympics (although she still made the trip to Italy).

    Somehow that has been lost, though. Between Flatt competing injured last year and Czisny competing injured this year, (whether intentional or not) it has cost US skating indirectly.

  8. #113
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    ...and I remember many posters saying she should have gone anyway, even if she could only do doubles, so that she could have an easy route to Nationals. Funny how general skating fan opinions change once it involves someone who is well-liked
    That's the rub for me also. I feel like Rachael gets a lot of harassment and not a lot of credit relative to other skaters.

    Should she have competed while injured? I think there is a case that she should have withdrew, but I can also see why -- with no USFSA advisement -- she decided to come anyway.

    Did she do a decent performance considering that she was not in top form? I say yes. She did not fall and her a 92 was about the best she can do given what she was able to do on the ice. And I did enjoy both of her programs. I think if she recovers from these injuries and returns to top form (a big question at this point), they could be really great to watch.

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    I didn't really like Flatt's decision to compete injured like this (whether or not she should have been given the spot in the first place is an aside), but this is not the first time she's done this. Nor is she the first skater I've criticized for doing so (and she won't be the last).

    I know it is a tendency of any athlete to continue slugging it out until their body literally falls apart on them, but in the end SOMEONE has got to be there to provide a check. Coach? Parents? Other members of her team? Heck, even USFS (only when spots are at stake, i.e. Worlds/Olympics)?

    ETA:

    I feel like Rachael gets a lot of harassment and not a lot of credit relative to other skaters.
    She does...or at least, used to. I've defended her in the past when everyone was dumping on her for style, weight, you name it...but you bet as soon as "tibiagate" occurred, I was right on her case for making a decision that negatively impacted US Skating. Perhaps the ones who hated her all along made the loudest noise, but just because some of us don't like the decision(s) she's made recently regarding her skating doesn't mean we are/were one of the "haters". An important distinction I think I need to mention.
    Last edited by R.D.; 10-25-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  10. #115
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    Has the USFSA ever pulled a skater from a competition because they (the USFSA) had concerns about the athlete's readiness to compete or state of health?

    Isn't it always up to the skater and his or her medical advisors to make the call?

    (Michelle Kwan's situation was different because she was given the spot contingent upon passing a test skate and evaluation by USFSA medical consultants.)

    There may even be a legal issue. If a skater is assigned to an event, and that skater's team including doctors say she is good to go, it would be awkward for the USFSA to demand a separate and competing medical evaluation.

  11. #116
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    I didn't really like Flatt's decision to compete injured like this (whether or not she should have been given the spot in the first place is an aside), but this is not the first time she's done this. Nor is she the first skater I've criticized for doing so (and she won't be the last).

    I know it is a tendency of any athlete to continue slugging it out until their body literally falls apart on them, but in the end SOMEONE has got to be there to provide a check. Coach? Parents? Other members of her team? Heck, even USFS (only when spots are at stake, i.e. Worlds/Olympics)?
    Well Evan Lysacek did only drop out of SA from that groin injury only when, and this is what he said, he could no longer walk. From the Chicago Tribune:

    Lysacek, 27, said he was off the ice about five weeks since first pulling a right groin muscle before a practice. He said the injury occurred when his leg slipped on gravel while he was doing warm-up lunges outside the rink in Lake Arrowhead, Calif.

    "I kept skating on it for a few days, and that possibly made it worse," he said. "When I couldn't walk or skate, I stopped."
    But yeah, until there is someone to provide the check or some sort of policy, I think it's difficult to point fingers at a skater for deciding to skate injured when so many have done so before. And how many times have we heard of skaters winning or getting a medal in spite of the injury? Skaters sometimes believe if they drug or bandage themselves they will make it work on competitive ice.

  12. #117
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    ETA:

    She does...or at least, used to. I've defended her in the past when everyone was dumping on her for style, weight, you name it...but you bet as soon as "tibiagate" occurred, I was right on her case for making a decision that negatively impacted US Skating. Perhaps the ones who hated her all along made the loudest noise, but just because some of us don't like the decision(s) she's made recently regarding her skating doesn't mean we are/were one of the "haters". An important distinction I think I need to mention.
    No, you expressed that same criticism with Alissa, so I get that there is distinction from you. But there are definitely posters who will NEVER give her credit for anything regardless of what she does or doesn't do. As I said, I don't feel strongly about this one way or the other as some posters here, but again, I can understand why people take issue with her showing up at SA.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Has the USFSA ever pulled a skater from a competition because they (the USFSA) had concerns about the athlete's readiness to compete or state of health?

    Isn't it always up to the skater and his or her medical advisors to make the call?

    (Michelle Kwan's situation was different because she was given the spot contingent upon passing a test skate and evaluation by USFSA medical consultants.)

    There may even be a legal issue. If a skater is assigned to an event, and that skater's team including doctors say she is good to go, it would be awkward for the USFSA to demand a separate and competing medical evaluation.
    Then there's the whole issue of whether USFSA even has the resources to do all these medical evaluations....

  14. #119
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    When Elvis Stojko gutted out a silver medal at the 1998 Olympics despite a serious groin injury and the flu, he received praise like this:

    http://articles.chicagotribune.com/keyword/elvis-stojko

    It all comes down to the result. Compete with an injury and win first place, you're a hero. Compete with an injury and get second. you're gutsy. Compete with an injury and finish last, you're fair game for all the second guessers.

  15. #120
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    Don't forget Evan bombing the SP in 2006 due to dehydration and flu like symptoms and then rallying in the LP to come up to fourth place overall... he was praised then (probably the last season he was favored by many lol)

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