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Thread: To Be...Or Not To be.....a Princess

  1. #1
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    To Be...Or Not To be.....a Princess

    Watching this Brit EuroSport clip of Alissa's SP from last season's Skate America made me wonder about what USA fans and skating fans in general expect or hope for from Lady skaters.

    Here is Alissa as called by the Brit Euro announcers:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OrYWKSrNrQ

    "Pretty as a Princess" was the call.

    Alissa's SP score from last season's SA was 64 and change.

    Now here is Ashley's SP from this season's SA:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SNWS0K1crY

    This program was hyped big time....but don't know if it is necessarily everybodies cup of tea.
    I don't think it approaches Caro's SP from last season but I admit it is growing on me.

    Ashley scored a 60 for this SP program.

    Just wondering- which program do GS members prefer...and why?

    mathman recently wrote (and then mysteriously deleted a good point) that American girls don't want to be a "Princess" any longer.
    He said something like "they want to steal second base."

    I never got to reply because he deleted that thought - but my feeling in part is that American girls who want to steal second base have plenty of opportunities to do so by playing baseball.

    Most of us are familiar with Abby, Alex and Hope - and know that American girls who want to score goals (or stop goals ) have the same opportunity as American boys to become accomplished soccer/football players.

    So what gives here?

    Is the "Ice Princess" a dead concept in USA? Is it part of the pageant effect of the past and anti-sport in the 21st century?

    Is it hurting skating - or is it unfortunate that Alissa may be the last in a long line of the American Ice Princess?
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-23-2012 at 10:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Is the "Ice Princess" a dead concept in USA?
    ho ho ho ho ho ha ha ha ha ha ha heh heh heh heh heh

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post

    Is it part of the pageant effect of the past and anti-sport in the 21st century?
    Yes, yes

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post

    Is it hurting skating - or is it unfortunate that Alissa may be the last in a long line of the American Ice Princess?
    Yes, no

  3. #3
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    ho ho ho ho ho ha ha ha ha ha ha heh heh heh heh heh



    Yes, yes



    Yes, no
    I am interested in your last answer - the "yes, no" which is either intriguing or terribly non-committal.

    Can you explain?

    ETA: to get back to mathman's premise - I find it flawed on several levels (not a criticism - in fact I like that you raised the question in the first place ).

    Let's assume a young gir loves to skate - and does not "want to steal second base" or become an "ice princess."
    Beyond any doubt American girls who love to skate can get into speed skating or ice hockey,,,,even short track.

    Am I wrong to feel that when they decide they want to be a figure skater - they do so because they like the sport and dance/art concept that is absolutely part of figure skating. They might really be into music as well.

    Let's take it a step further - they might also like the costumes, makeup and the theatrical aspects that are undeniably part of figureskating.

    Gracie looks like a very athletic girl. Why is she into figure skating and not speed skating or hockey. How do we know that her secret dream is really to score a goal or steal second base?

    If that were really true I doubt that Gracie would have chosen figure skating and all that it encompasses.
    Without any doubt she has options.....
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-23-2012 at 06:33 PM.

  4. #4
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    As the grandmother of a 10 year old girl, I can assure you that princesses, not to mention fairies, are still big with little girls in the US and in other countries. The total sales of Disney Princess paraphenalia alone should tell you that.

    http://www.disneybythenumbers.com/wdco/page12.html

    170 million visitors per year make a visit to Disney stores worldwide.
    25,000 SKU’s & 300 licenses are issued for the Disney Princess merchandise globally.
    ...
    $2.6 billion in box office revenue worldwide for Disney Princess animated films.


    5 of the top six Disney video releases of all time are Disney Princess animated films.

    4 of the 5 top direct-to-video premieres of all time are Disney Princess animated films.

    24 million guests have seen Beauty and the Beast on Broadway.

    10 million in worldwide circulation for the Disney Princess Magazines. Disney Princess Magazines also produces 30 editions available in 75 countries.

    96% awareness with Moms of Kids, 94% awareness with Girls 9-11, 91% awareness with Girls 6-8 is what Tinker bell can offer.
    The cult of the princess is definitely not dead.

    Fairies (cs. Tinker belle) are also popular.

    Building houses for fairies is likewise popular, and my granddaughter and her bff went to this event...wearing fairy wings.,

    http://www.fairyhouses.com/events/to...portsmouth-nh/

    They both also play soccer.

    Princessing & team sports are not mutually exclusive activities.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    As the grandmother of a 10 year old girl, I can assure you that princesses, not to mention fairies, are still big with little girls in the US and in other countries. The total sales of Disney Princess paraphenalia alone should tell you that.

    http://www.disneybythenumbers.com/wdco/page12.html



    The cult of the princess is definitely not dead.

    Fairies (cs. Tinker belle) are also popular.

    Building houses for fairies is likewise popular, and my granddaughter and her bff went to this event...wearing fairy wings.,

    http://www.fairyhouses.com/events/to...portsmouth-nh/

    They both also play soccer.

    Princessing & team sports are not mutually exclusive activities.
    Interesting answer Doris.....I also have a fair share of "princesses" in my life. : None of them want to try figure skating- although one - the seriously good soccer player loves Apollo - and mentioned how cool short track skating is and that would be the only thing that could get her on ice skates.

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    One of the great things about growing up right now is that women-- and girls-- can choose what they want to be. I would think that Alissa is a "princess" because that is what fits her personality, demeanor, and taste. It doesn't feel forced or trite with her, because that's just who she is. Ashley seems to be a more aggressive and athletic skater because that's what fits her personality, demeanor, and taste. I don't think either style is going away (I would argue that we saw some gorgeous balletic skating at SA), and don't think that anyone who is not going to become an "ice princess" is hurting the sport. On the contrary, I think that having different artistic perspectives can only benefit the sport.

    I think, ultimately, Americans-- and I would assume most fans-- like to see skaters skating what is true to them. As a fan of both Alissa and Ashley, I wouldn't want either of them to be someone else. There is room for both styles in figure skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by britebells View Post
    One of the great things about growing up right now is that women-- and girls-- can choose what they want to be. I would think that Alissa is a "princess" because that is what fits her personality, demeanor, and taste. It doesn't feel forced or trite with her, because that's just who she is. Ashley seems to be a more aggressive and athletic skater because that's what fits her personality, demeanor, and taste. I don't think either style is going away (I would argue that we saw some gorgeous balletic skating at SA), and don't think that anyone who is not going to become an "ice princess" is hurting the sport. On the contrary, I think that having different artistic perspectives can only benefit the sport.

    I think, ultimately, Americans-- and I would assume most fans-- like to see skaters skating what is true to them. As a fan of both Alissa and Ashley, I wouldn't want either of them to be someone else. There is room for both styles in figure skating.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I pretty much agree.....and am a HUGE Alissa fan

    I also can see that Mr Nicks has taken Ashley to a better place.....she is no Sasha and never will be.
    I like what Ashley is showing - and it seems like stylistically she has finaly found her way. By next season - look out! (maybe even this season)
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-23-2012 at 06:43 PM.

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    Like britebells, I prefer skating that matches the skater. I love Mao as an ice princess but not as whatever she was trying to be in 2010 under Tarasova. I think skaters are generally good at picking programs that fit their personality although there are times when I wish skaters would challenge themselves at least a little bit. A skater that comes to mind is Alissa, who seems to skate the same type of program every time.

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    I think that's a wonderful point about how girls today can both play soccer and be princesses and not be violating any kind of "identity" rule. To me, skaters who have a more artistic approach aren't necessarily princessy. Maybe they're queenly. Maybe they're empresses. There's a whole range possible. The description "princess" does seem to suit Alissa (whom I adore)--there's a delicacy about her that seems compatible with the English word. Although the Italian translation of the word, Principessa, has a bit more command to it. Hmmm.....Miki Ando?

    In any case, I hope that Princess-ness will remain in skating. It won't be any fun if every lady skater is a blazing athlete with sky-high jumps. Variety is the spice of life and skating.

  10. #10
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    As the grandmother of a 10 year old girl, I can assure you that princesses, not to mention fairies, are still big with little girls in the US and in other countries. The total sales of Disney Princess paraphenalia alone should tell you that.

    http://www.disneybythenumbers.com/wdco/page12.html



    The cult of the princess is definitely not dead.

    Fairies (cs. Tinker belle) are also popular.

    Building houses for fairies is likewise popular, and my granddaughter and her bff went to this event...wearing fairy wings.,

    http://www.fairyhouses.com/events/to...portsmouth-nh/

    They both also play soccer.

    Princessing & team sports are not mutually exclusive activities.

    *psst!* It's "Tinkerbell"

    My neice is a gymnast who loves all things pink and purple... loves the princesses but went as a vampiress last halloween... she's a girly girl who loves the princesses but plays hard at sports... girl started learning the bars this year. first time out she let go and landed on her face. No crying she picked herself up and did it right the next time... oh, yeah, she's six.

    Girls kick butt!

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    Just think about figure skating in pop culture. The last movie made about a girl who wanted to figure skate was literally called "Ice Princess." The main character even wore a tiara to the climatic competition.

    Besides, it doesn't matter if a skater is a princess or a queen or a pirate or swan or generic classical music fairy. They're still in a sport/activity that's judged at least partly on appearances, and this includes ballet, pageants, gymnastics, figure skating, dance, cheerleading. Why should it be so good that the whims of the judges have shifted to another genre? It's moot though, because all of those sports/activities like and always will like princesses. And by princess, I mean the lean, flat, graceful, bendy, dainty, smiling, purdy girl with long lines.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Mirari and Caroline Zhang were quickly dubbed the baby princess as young seniors. Christina has a pretty princess quaility as well...but her skating isn't quite refined enough yet. I think its just that the skaters as of late are trending towards a more muscular body type--Rachael, Ashley, Agnes even Caroline Zhang don't fit easily into the ballerina aesthetic, and it wouldn't be playing to their strengths to try to skate as such (even Ashley's Black Swan worked more as a seductive, dramatic Odile than a frail Odette).

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Frail loses you points. It used to be that ladylike little bitty jumps just barely rotated, possibly flutzed, would not harm your score. In COP, those jumps just won't do. However, there's nothing that says a princess can't have some muscles with her lovely posture.

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    Why would an athletic, competitive girl who loves to skate choose figure skating over speedskating or hockey if she doesn't want to be a princess?

    Maybe she loves to jump and spin. Or be lifted and thrown, if she goes into pair skating. She's not going to be able to get the feeling of executing those specific skills in speedskating or hockey.

    It's very common, at least at certain points in their careers, for some young skaters (of both sexes) to want to spend all their time working on learning new jumps, to the exclusion of other skills.

    Obviously girls, and boys, who go into figure skating know that if they want to succeed at the higher levels they will need not only difficult jumps but also spins and steps and field moves and other basic skating skills and presentation and choreography to music, and the complexity of weaving all those skills together into programs.

    Depending on temperament and interest, different skaters may be more interested in some of those aspects and less interested in others. And their interests may change over time.

    It's certainly possible to want to wear pretty dresses and also to compete like a jock.

    When it comes to choosing how to package the skating in terms of music and choreography choice and developing dance and presentation skills (or not), skaters may choose images that appeal to them personally or what they and their coaches and choreographers think will appeal most to judges or will work best with their natural body type and movement style. They might put a lot of time into developing dance and presentation skills, or not much at all.

    Historically it seems that a lot of the more artistically inclined female skaters, who spend time paying attention to things like carriage and extension and musical nuance, tend to gravitate toward princessy themes about elegance, beauty, delicacy, lyricism.

    There are also plenty of artistic choices one can make that are not princessy. We see lots of these from male skaters, obviously; personally I'd like to see more from female skaters as well.

    My personal ideal is a skater who has worked enough on artistic skills that she can skate to a variety of themes and musical styles, so that she can do the beauty thing well and also other types of themes with other types of emphases.

    But in practice we seem to get the other types of themes most often from girls from whom the artistic side of the sport is of less interest than the athletic side.

    Even with intense attention to presentation skills, skaters can only do what their bodies can do. Not everyone can be superflexible, and probably not everyone can have exquisite extension and body line, even if they work hard enough to be as good as they can be in those areas. Of course those things get rewarded, but I always appreciate when I see a skater for whom those things don't come naturally and will always be a struggle find success with emphasizing complex rhythms or using blade skills and her whole body in original ways to develop an artistic theme that doesn't fit the stereotypes.

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    ^ As always, your thoughts are very interesting gkelly.

    Your post made me think of Dorothy - who was transformed from a very athletic, "tomboy" type skater into a "Princess" by Carlo Fassi.

    Fassi's reasoning for this was that he knew what the Euro and particulalrly eastern Euro judges wanted to see.

    Tenley and Carol were athletic skaters....the title "Ice Princess" was bestowed upon them but did not really accurately describe their skating style.

    Peggy, coached by Fassi was more in the mold of the balletic "Ice Princess" and Fassi tried to model Dorothy after her.

    Seems like it worked out OK in the end ......and Dorothy did transform herself in time for the '76 Olympics.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-24-2012 at 11:26 AM.

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