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Thread: How do the top men rank now that the season's begun?

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    How do the top men rank now that the season's begun?

    Hanyu has just gotten a perfectly clean "world record" SP at SA. He is viewed by some as the best ever since Plushenko. Kozuka is back this season with a fully rotated quad in SP and a fully rotated quad in LP plus a quad combo. Even though the quad in the combo was UR, three quads almost all successful in one competition for Kozuka is brandnew this season. Takahashi was roaring at the pre-season pro-am Japan Open with a successful quad and attempt for a quad combo. Chan faltered badly at the same event with no URs or DGs but bad landings. Chan's 10 fall or even 5 or 6 fall cushions were proved never existed. In addition, Chan's advantage ahead of all other top skaters from last two seasons are shrinking at least in this season. Plushenko was great as usual but showed a little bit his age at the end on 2A. Though Plushenko won't confront any of these skaters this season.

    So where are they now? Who could win more this season?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-24-2012 at 11:32 AM.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    And here I thought this would be a thread to discuss great skaters from the past and what they're doing these days.

    If there's something I've learned as a skating fan, it's not to speculate based on one GP (and the JO). Some skaters start strong, others peak later. How many people predicted Gachi would medal in 2011, and Fernandez as a GPF medalist, TakaTran in pairs or Alena Leonova winning silver at Worlds in the ladies last year? How many people thought Lysacek would win Worlds and later the OGM at this point in the 2008-9 season? Once we get maybe halfway through the Grand Prix, this discussion might be more interesting. Until then, it's just an excuse to go on about who does or doesn't have a X fall advantage over whom.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 10-24-2012 at 11:48 AM.

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    No offense, I've heard too many times about Chan's advantages, and so on and so on, fair or unfair. Now I just hope to have a place for the same posters and great many others and hear now what they think about this whole top men's field. I think it is a legitimate discussion. Haven't people already crowned Hanyu as the best ever?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-24-2012 at 11:56 AM.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    No offense, I've heard too many times about Chan's advantages, and so on and so on, fair or unfair. Now I just hope to have a place for the same posters and great many others and hear now what they think about this whole top men's field. I think it is a legitimate discussion.
    Exactly. It's been rehashed endlessly - by you as well, on the side stating that his scores are fair. Why do we need another debate about how many falls various skaters should be allowed? Why did you choose to frame the discussion that way?

    Haven't people already crowned Hanyu as the best ever?
    No, that would be Kurt Browning.

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Maybe it would help if we just simply called it Men's figure skating 2012-2013? That way we can keep the thread up all the year long?

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Maybe it would help if we just simply called it Men's figure skating 2012-2013? That way we can keep the thread up all the year long?
    I am in favor!

    Because I was critical of the way Bluebonnet framed her question, let me take a crack at it myself...

    With the Japan Open, several senior Bs and the first GP of the season in the books, we've already had a glimpse at quite a few skaters, while others should make their season debut soon. Starting with the top 5 at Worlds, what might we expect this season from:

    Patrick Chan, who's made a coaching change, a choreo change, and had a poor start at the JO?
    Daisuke Takahashi, who sadly went back to Morozov; can he show that he is capable of skating to the best of his ability outside Japan? Will the judges take note?
    Yuzuru Hanyu, who's a huge talent but whose stamina remains an issue? Can Brian Orser find the right training regimen for Yuzuru and Pooh?
    Brian Joubert - will his strong finish last season get him going in the right direction? Can he get the FFSG's full support and hold off...
    Florent Amodio, who has traded placements with Joubert both nationally and internationally and whose programs remain rather too Morozovian for many people's tastes?

    Will Javier Fernandez be able to keep going strong for a full season? How will the situation with the Japanese men shake out? Is Nobu back? Will Verner ever be back? Will Brezina ever break through and/or skate two good programs at the same event? Can Plushy win Euros again? Can Gachi return to form? Can the Russian men get at least two spots for the Olympics? Will Abbott ever deliver when it matters? Can Johnny make the World Team? Can Evan? Will Evan really compete? Was Finlandia a one-off for Dornbush or is he the real deal? Is Nathan Chen going to win JW before he even turns 14? Will Jason Brown get a haircut? Is KvdP truly done? Who will be the first to land a ratified 4F and 4R?

    See, I think there's plenty to discuss when it comes to the men, without ever bringing the issues of falls and unfair advantages into it.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 10-24-2012 at 12:33 PM.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    It's not unheard of in other sports to have the "official champion" and the "people's champion."

    Muhammed Ali - win or lose - was always the "people's champion." There were reasons for that.

    If Dai is considered by many as the "people's champion" there are also reasons for that.

    Can anyone explain why?

    Why is Chan scorned to an extent and why is Dai so beloved?
    Certainly there are reasons for this........

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Exactly. It's been rehashed endlessly - by you as well, on the side stating that his scores are fair. Why do we need another debate about how many falls various skaters should be allowed? Why did you choose to frame the discussion that way?
    Frame what discussion?! I'm not aware of it. Do I have the power to frame a discussion?! No, I'm just a poster like everyone else who do not fear to state my opinions which sometimes controversial. Thanks to freedom of speech! They were just my opinions. The same like how you've been stating your opinions.

    Obviously you've cared enough about this topic so that you've jumped in right away to play the opponent of mine. I don't mind at all that people have the totally opposit opinions from mine. In fact, I'd love to know the opposit opinions. Discussion would bring more ideas and would help to find answers - hopefully there will be answers.

    ETA:

    The situation has changed. I think people's opinions have changed accordingly as well. Why couldn't we have a new discussion about this now?
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-24-2012 at 01:22 PM.

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, that would be Kurt Browning.
    it's well deserved!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, that would be Kurt Browning.
    I vote yes!

    As for this year, I agree that it's a bit early to tell. My hopes continue to lie with Daisuke, but at this point in the year, a goodly number of the men could turn out to be splendid. I'm really pleased to think of Oda on the list of promising skaters going forward. One more person I'd love to see on the list, and that's Jeremy...I can dream, can't I? When he's on (in Grand Prix and/or Nationals), he's heartbreakingly superb--artistry and quad capabilities! But he never seems to pull it together at worlds. I've almost given up having wishes about the fate of American male skaters.

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    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, that would be Kurt Browning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    it's well deserved!
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I vote yes!
    I knew I'd get support in this! And, speaking of top men and where they are now, wasn't it great to see Kurt competing again, and reviving Singin' in the Rain, no less?

    This got me thinking that one of the reasons Kurt is so great and so liked by many fans (in addition to natural talent) is that he had the opportunity to really hone his abilities not just as a pro skater but also as a competitive pro skater. I hope events like the MWO and Scott Hamilton's planned competition will provide such opportunities for more skaters.

    As for this year, I agree that it's a bit early to tell. My hopes continue to lie with Daisuke, but at this point in the year, a goodly number of the men could turn out to be splendid. I'm really pleased to think of Oda on the list of promising skaters going forward. One more person I'd love to see on the list, and that's Jeremy...I can dream, can't I? When he's on (in Grand Prix and/or Nationals), he's heartbreakingly superb--artistry and quad capabilities! But he never seems to pull it together at worlds. I've almost given up having wishes about the fate of American male skaters.
    Well, that's why I added Richard Dornbush to the list of interesting stories to follow re the top men - his score from Finlandia was so impressive! I haven't seen the performance itself but I'm sure it must have been pretty good to be rewarded like that; maybe he's on his way to a real breakthrough season?

    I wish we could actually discuss the top men and their prospects without it descending each time to "who is more overscored", which has been done to death. But apparently I am in the minority.

    p.s. if we don't punish other serious errors on a jump with a zero score, why should falls be different? They may need to receive a lower score than they do now, but certainly not nothing.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Chan's 5 or 6 fall cushions were proved never existed.
    No they weren't. Chan left a lot of content out at Japan Open aside from just the fall mistakes. If he had rotated all the content and fallen 3 times, like last year, he would have won again. And that would be wrong.

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    I do think it's somewhat interesting how much of a free ride Hanyu has gotten from people given that he gave virtually the exact same performance as Chan did in CoR 2010 (three falls, discounted element in the LP) but Chan was eviscerated alive for it whereas Hanyu's disaster was somehow less of an affront to figure skating enthusiasts. I won't deny that what I see as double standards leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth.

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    Mine too IP.

    I also cannot bear the viciousness against Chan that we see all the time.

    Anyway time will tell who will be the best one of them all this year. Certainly an interesting season to be sure for both Chan fans and Chan haterz.

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I do think it's somewhat interesting how much of a free ride Hanyu has gotten from people given that he gave virtually the exact same performance as Chan did in CoR 2010 (three falls, discounted element in the LP) but Chan was eviscerated alive for it whereas Hanyu's disaster was somehow less of an affront to figure skating enthusiasts. I won't deny that what I see as double standards leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth.
    Hanyu was third in the FS. He was not even close to winning the event with that FS. And Hanyu was not only marked down considerably in TES, but PCS losing to Kozuka, Abbott (who had a meltdown himself) AND Machida, someone that has no political capital whatsoever. That program did not only evaporate the 10 point lead he had on Kozuka, he actually ended up losing to him by a considerable margin (7.70 points). He was not even close to winning with three falls.

    Chan lost a lot of points on TES, but his PCS score remained relatively high to his TES (14.35 point gap). He would have actually won if he did not zayak the last combination, i.e. just did the 2A instead.

    I have no skin in the game for either, but it makes sense to me why Hanyu's meltdown did not get the same outrage from fans.

    ETA: Of course in the Hanyu scenario it did help that Kozuka had an amazing skate and Machida kept it pretty clean aside from the fall on the quad.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-24-2012 at 10:33 PM.

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