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Thread: How do the top men rank now that the season's begun?

  1. #16
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    Mine too IP.

    I also cannot bear the viciousness against Chan that we see all the time.

    Anyway time will tell who will be the best one of them all this year. Certainly an interesting season to be sure for both Chan fans and Chan haterz.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, that would be Kurt Browning.
    I vote yes!

    As for this year, I agree that it's a bit early to tell. My hopes continue to lie with Daisuke, but at this point in the year, a goodly number of the men could turn out to be splendid. I'm really pleased to think of Oda on the list of promising skaters going forward. One more person I'd love to see on the list, and that's Jeremy...I can dream, can't I? When he's on (in Grand Prix and/or Nationals), he's heartbreakingly superb--artistry and quad capabilities! But he never seems to pull it together at worlds. I've almost given up having wishes about the fate of American male skaters.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I do think it's somewhat interesting how much of a free ride Hanyu has gotten from people given that he gave virtually the exact same performance as Chan did in CoR 2010 (three falls, discounted element in the LP) but Chan was eviscerated alive for it whereas Hanyu's disaster was somehow less of an affront to figure skating enthusiasts. I won't deny that what I see as double standards leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth.
    Hanyu was third in the FS. He was not even close to winning the event with that FS. And Hanyu was not only marked down considerably in TES, but PCS losing to Kozuka, Abbott (who had a meltdown himself) AND Machida, someone that has no political capital whatsoever. That program did not only evaporate the 10 point lead he had on Kozuka, he actually ended up losing to him by a considerable margin (7.70 points). He was not even close to winning with three falls.

    Chan lost a lot of points on TES, but his PCS score remained relatively high to his TES (14.35 point gap). He would have actually won if he did not zayak the last combination, i.e. just did the 2A instead.

    I have no skin in the game for either, but it makes sense to me why Hanyu's meltdown did not get the same outrage from fans.

    ETA: Of course in the Hanyu scenario it did help that Kozuka had an amazing skate and Machida kept it pretty clean aside from the fall on the quad.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-24-2012 at 10:33 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    No they weren't. Chan left a lot of content out at Japan Open aside from just the fall mistakes. If he had rotated all the content and fallen 3 times, like last year, he would have won again. And that would be wrong.
    I'm wondering if you've actually calculated or checked their skating contents or scores before you made such assumption?

    By not accurate but fast checking:

    Japan Open 2011:

    Patrick Chan 159.93
    Artur Gachinski 152.71
    Takahiko Kozuka 148.21
    Jeffrey Buttle 138.33
    Florent Amodio 138.25
    Daisuke Takahashi 130.79


    Japan Open 2012:

    Daisuke Takahashi 172.06
    Takahiko Kozuka 165.08
    Jeffrey Buttle 160.86
    Evgeni Plushenko 156.21
    Michal Brezina 151.53
    Patrick Chan 137.42

    Patrick's last year's three fall but otherwise clean program will be at around fourth place in this year's Japan Open. So your assertion was not correct.

    By more accurate checking:

    Last year:

    Chan BV=76.27, PCS=84.06
    Gachinski BV=76.12, PCS=74.78
    Kozuka BV=72.12, PCS=73.88
    Buttle BV=52.50, PCS=79.14
    Amodio BV=64, PCS=72.16
    Takahashi BV=56.33, PCS=78.64

    Despite Patrick's three falls, he had the highest BV among all 6 skaters. He executed his program very well besides the falls. I will stand by my opinion which I've said before. Patrick has won 2011 Japan Open with three falls, simply because others were worse than him at that competition. This year everyone was up graded the game. Patrick won't win with that many falls even if he just made three fall mistakes but otherwise clean.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-24-2012 at 11:37 PM.

  5. #20
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Patrick wasn't the best at 2011 Japan Open, that's the problem.

    Patrick also had other issues other than just falls at 2011 Japan Open. So, once again, if Patrick Chan rotated all of his planned content and fell 3 times, he still would have beaten Takahashi at Japan Open this year. Which is not how it should be.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Hanyu was third in the FS. He was not even close to winning the event with that FS. And Hanyu was not only marked down considerably in TES, but PCS losing to Kozuka, Abbott (who had a meltdown himself) AND Machida, someone that has no political capital whatsoever. That program did not only evaporate the 10 point lead he had on Kozuka, he actually ended up losing to him by a considerable margin (7.70 points). He was not even close to winning with three falls.

    Chan lost a lot of points on TES, but his PCS score remained relatively high to his TES (14.35 point gap). He would have actually won if he did not zayak the last combination, i.e. just did the 2A instead.

    I have no skin in the game for either, but it makes sense to me why Hanyu's meltdown did not get the same outrage from fans.

    ETA: Of course in the Hanyu scenario it did help that Kozuka had an amazing skate and Machida kept it pretty clean aside from the fall on the quad.
    If Kozuka at Skate America had given the skate Verner did at CoR, Hanyu would've won, (not almost win, won) fwiw, as the short program lead would've been greater than the long program lead.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Patrick also had other issues other than just falls at 2011 Japan Open. So, once again, if Patrick Chan rotated all of his planned content and fell 3 times, he still would have beaten Takahashi at Japan Open this year. Which is not how it should be.
    How? Numbers please! You've just kept asserting this but there is no proof.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    If Kozuka at Skate America had given the skate Verner did at CoR, Hanyu would've won, (not almost win, won) fwiw, as the short program lead would've been greater than the long program lead.
    Which is why I noted that Kozuka's performance -- amazing so lucky to see it in person!!! -- was a factor.

    But Hanyu also lost to Machida in both TES and PCS as well, whose program was more equal to Verner's at CoR. And I agree with that. Machida's version of the Firebird was pretty awesome.

    I suppose yes if both Kozuka and Machida skated like Verner did Hanyu would have won because of his short program lead. But Hanyu skated a flawless SP; Patrick didn't.

    As I said, I don't really care to win this argument, but simply just logically explain why I think there is less outrage. So I'll leave my comments on this at that.

    ETA: I realize that we ought to add apples to apples with the SP. So let's take out the BV from the new 1.1 rule. So Hanyu's base value w/o the bonus is 41.50, higher than Patrick's (40.80). So with the +GOE his TES was 49.85 + 43.86 PCS = 93.71. Of course this whole exercise is pointless since you can't compare scores across competitions....
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-24-2012 at 11:25 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Hanyu was third in the FS. He was not even close to winning the event with that FS. And Hanyu was not only marked down considerably in TES, but PCS losing to Kozuka, Abbott (who had a meltdown himself) AND Machida, someone that has no political capital whatsoever. That program did not only evaporate the 10 point lead he had on Kozuka, he actually ended up losing to him by a considerable margin (7.70 points). He was not even close to winning with three falls.
    Hanyu was basically giving up on performance. I was actually surprised that Hanyu even got 148.67 in total and 79.56 in PCS. To me, it was a gift. Abbott did not give up on performing despite of his jumping problems.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I do think it's somewhat interesting how much of a free ride Hanyu has gotten from people given that he gave virtually the exact same performance as Chan did in CoR 2010 (three falls, discounted element in the LP) but Chan was eviscerated alive for it whereas Hanyu's disaster was somehow less of an affront to figure skating enthusiasts. I won't deny that what I see as double standards leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth.
    I don't think people blame Chan when he falls multiple times and still wins. I think people get frustrated with the system and when we express it the Chan uberfans act like we're too stupid to understand the scoring and be able to identify good skating. Chan is far superior IMO to Hanyu at this point so I also wouldn't score Hanyu as high as the judges did at SA.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think people blame Chan when he falls multiple times and still wins. I think people get frustrated with the system and when we express it the Chan uberfans act like we're too stupid to understand the scoring and be able to identify good skating. Chan is far superior IMO to Hanyu at this point so I also wouldn't score Hanyu as high as the judges did at SA.
    Chan has the potential to break that record pretty easily, me thinks. Chan has always had COP friendly programs, and it wouldn't surprise me if that record is broken by him at some point in the season.

    The audience at SA certainly did not object to Hanyu's score, though. That said, I think EVERYONE, including Orser and Hanyu (Orser himself told me he expected a score in the high 80s.) did not expect the judges to give that high of a score.

    ETA From the GS article on the Men's SP:

    “The rules have changed since last season, so I was able to take advantage of the bonus for landing the jumps late in the program,” he explained. “I am really surprised by the score, but I don’t want to think about it too much. It’s only the first Grand Prix, and I don’t want to get too excited and let my emotions get the best of me.”

    Hanyu’s program was chock full of choreographic nuances which he executed with flair and excitement. As a result, the leader was also rewarded with the highest program component scores of the night (51.71/43.36).

    “I was focused on my technical score, so I was very surprised,” said Hanyu. “I wasn’t really focused on the artistic score, but now that you told me the performance score was high as well, I am very surprised. I have been doing very well in practice, so I’m pleased.”
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-24-2012 at 11:34 PM.

  12. #27
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    How? Numbers please! You've just kept asserting this but there is no proof.
    As has been said a million times, a skater receives 6.3 points for falling on a rotated Quad Toe. That is wrong. The scoring system needs to be changed across the board for the -GOE penalty given to jumps.

    The PCS were really too skewed as well, with Patrick receiving huge numbers for that kind uninspired performance. He wasn't 10 points better on PCS than Gachinski.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    As has been said a million times, a skater receives 6.3 points for falling on a rotated Quad Toe. That is wrong. The scoring system needs to be changed across the board for the -GOE penalty given to jumps.

    The PCS were really too skewed as well, with Patrick receiving huge numbers for that kind uninspired performance. He wasn't 10 points better on PCS than Gachinski.
    Playing devil's advocate, since it's being brought up -- do you have a problem with Hanyu received scores of 7.30 and 7.50 for falling on a Quad Toe and Salchow at the SA LP?

    Actually my husband, being the non fan he is, found that to be the weirdest thing about the scoring system. He went on and on about that on the way home on Monday.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-24-2012 at 11:41 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, that would be Kurt Browning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    it's well deserved!
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    I vote yes!
    I knew I'd get support in this! And, speaking of top men and where they are now, wasn't it great to see Kurt competing again, and reviving Singin' in the Rain, no less?

    This got me thinking that one of the reasons Kurt is so great and so liked by many fans (in addition to natural talent) is that he had the opportunity to really hone his abilities not just as a pro skater but also as a competitive pro skater. I hope events like the MWO and Scott Hamilton's planned competition will provide such opportunities for more skaters.

    As for this year, I agree that it's a bit early to tell. My hopes continue to lie with Daisuke, but at this point in the year, a goodly number of the men could turn out to be splendid. I'm really pleased to think of Oda on the list of promising skaters going forward. One more person I'd love to see on the list, and that's Jeremy...I can dream, can't I? When he's on (in Grand Prix and/or Nationals), he's heartbreakingly superb--artistry and quad capabilities! But he never seems to pull it together at worlds. I've almost given up having wishes about the fate of American male skaters.
    Well, that's why I added Richard Dornbush to the list of interesting stories to follow re the top men - his score from Finlandia was so impressive! I haven't seen the performance itself but I'm sure it must have been pretty good to be rewarded like that; maybe he's on his way to a real breakthrough season?

    I wish we could actually discuss the top men and their prospects without it descending each time to "who is more overscored", which has been done to death. But apparently I am in the minority.

    p.s. if we don't punish other serious errors on a jump with a zero score, why should falls be different? They may need to receive a lower score than they do now, but certainly not nothing.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Well, that's why I added Richard Dornbush to the list of interesting stories to follow re the top men - his score from Finlandia was so impressive! I haven't seen the performance itself but I'm sure it must have been pretty good to be rewarded like that; maybe he's on his way to a real breakthrough season?

    I wish we could actually discuss the top men and their prospects without it descending each time to "who is more overscored", which has been done to death. But apparently I am in the minority.

    p.s. if we don't punish other serious errors on a jump with a zero score, why should falls be different? They may need to receive a lower score than they do now, but certainly not nothing.
    Buttercup, I'm in total support of talking about other broader stories beyond Chan vs. everyone else. Here's some of the narratives I'll be following..

    ** Tatsuki Machida is looking really strong this year. He was my new favorite coming out of Skate America. It's going to be really tough for him to get on the world team (wah!), but I think he can still establish himself this year. His SP is so awesome (and not surprising as Lambiel choreographed it) and while he doesn't have the speed and power of the Japanese men, I think he will be consistent enough where we might get to enjoy his skating some more this year!
    ** Dornbush, I agree, will be an interesting story this year. Here's his long from Finlandia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QbIO...eature=related
    ** I would also watch for Ross Miner. I feel like he gets underrated on this board. He's working on a quad, not consistent yet, but Ross has a tendency to peak later in the season...and I think he's hungry to be at Worlds.
    ** Fernandez, of course, is always interesting to watch and it will be interesting to see how his programs look after his breakout season. Also it will be interesting to see if he can sustain good skating all season long so he can get a Euros medal.
    ** Meshnov, old or not, looked quite nice at Skate America. His quads were actually quite nice! It would definitely be interesting if he can beat Gachniski (and Plushenko) this year.
    ** Oda, Oda, Oda! He looked soooo good at Nebelhorn. I missed that guy's skating and I'm glad he's back! I hope he can workout his math problems.

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