How do the top men rank now that the season's begun? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

How do the top men rank now that the season's begun?

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I disagree a bit. Had Yuka's most difficult jump been a 3T she would never have gotten those kind of marks. Yes she did everything well but there's a lot of skaters who do everything well but couldn't pull the marks because they didn't have the most difficult triples. So in that sense a failed 3Z did factor into the scoring and allowed her to score higher than probably a successful 3T would have. (Witt completed a 3T-2T and a clean program but finished one spot ahead of Yuka in the SP)

6 of the judges gave Witt a higher tech score, with a couple of her spins and her 2F being slightly weaker than Yuka's. The 3T-2Toe was clearly given more credit than the 1Z.

Anyway, IF what you are saying is true, it denotes something else altogether: reputation judging. It's not judges giving credit for failed jumps.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
No scoring system should reward "trying." No scoring system should reward taking a risk but failing. (See definition of "risk" ;) ) No scoring system should reward attempting to do something without success.

(That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) )

I think it would be interesting to see this idea taken to it's logical endpoint.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I think it would be interesting to see this idea taken to it's logical endpoint.

I know. Quite so. It is easy to find examples of jumps that deserve some sort of credit on which the skater can't quite hold the landing, and other jumps that deserve nothing but a big goose egg despite the guy managing to keep his feet.

IMHO it is not possible to apply principles of logic to figure skating (or to much else in the actual world).

Still, I think the principle of rewarding achievement rather than "trying" should be insisted on more firmly in figure skating judging. I do not like the argument that we should give greater rewards or less severe penalties for failed quads in order to encourage more skaters to "try."

"Do or do not." -- Yoda. ;)
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Everything a skater does on the ice requires some amount of energy and skill. It has to be judged how much energy and skill was exerted. Falling on a Quad needs to be worth as much as Double Axel or else 8-Triple programs are worth more than 8 Triple + failed Quad programs, and THAT wouldn't be objectively correct.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
No scoring system should reward "trying." No scoring system should reward taking a risk but failing. (See definition of "risk" ;) ) No scoring system should reward attempting to do something without success.

(That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) )

I thought some mathematic tests gave partial credits for procedures even though the final answers were wrong. But some math tests gave credits only if the final answers were correct.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Falling on a Quad needs to be worth as much as Double Axel or else 8-Triple programs are worth more than 8 Triple + failed Quad programs, and THAT wouldn't be objectively correct.

I don't know about objectively, but from a sporting point of view you could have a scenario like this. Both skaters have their eight triples in the bank, with similar marks in other areas. It's crunch time. Are you a man or a mouse?

Here's your choice. You can play it safe with nice double Axel, hoping that other guy will mess up. Or you can go for the gold with the quad, do or die. It's the "die" part that seems to be missing from the IJS. You can do and win by 7 points or you can die and still win by 1 point. The moderate thrill of backing into victory versus the non-agony of winning even if you mess up.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I thought some mathematic tests gave partial credits for procedures even though the final answers were wrong. But others gave credits only if the final answers were correct.

That's true. But we are talking about winning the world championship in a sport, not coddling children along hoping that maybe they will learn something after all if we are gentle enough with them.

A better comparison would be, should we give string theorists partial credit for coming up with an amusing theory, or should we insist on some sort of actual achievement before we start giving out Nobel prizes?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
That's true. But we are talking about winning the world championship in a sport, not coddling children along hoping that maybe they will learn something after all if we are gentle enough with them.

A better comparison would be, should we give string theorists partial credit for coming up with an amusing theory, or should we insist on some sort of actual achievement before we start giving out Nobel prizes?

1. Would you be okay for partial credit for juniors and novices then?
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
ok I didn't get that for over 2 minutes... I am not blonde... just sleep deprived... I will be glaring at your profile for teh rest of the year.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
1. Would you be okay for partial credit for juniors and novices then?

In practices, yes. Give them encouragement by all mens.

But I still think it would be OK to say, now you are in your first competition, the judges are going to treat you like a big boy. You have to really concentrate on that double Salchow or you won't get any points for it.
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
you spelled" the" wrong...it is fast typing or u transpose teh from the all the time. but i am typing with no caps and make mistakes as I sleep little and sometimes half medicated to sleep. so what...grammar, spelling etc. are not impt unless it's atrocious and unreadable...I haven't read the thread except the end seems to be about the jump credits issue again. So glad I skipped it :biggrin:

So many great men skating...I go for the artistry...who cares about under rotattions...nitpicking in a 7-8 triple program with spins, footwork. I think slo mo and the new IJS are wrecking skating, I realy do. How many Oly gold medalists can rotate 7 -8 triples plus quad perfectly? None I'll bet. Maybe Yuna but she has other flaws outside jumping. Much ado about the wrong things. It's the emotional impact/beauty that matters most. Art over perfectly rotated jumps should win the day, any day.
 
Last edited:

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
There are no pro comps anymore. I like all skating but prefer a Carolina over a great jumper like Yuna. I prefer lines, flow, musicality, good footwork, attractive spins over the same moves and same spins and frenetic programs. I prefer watching Chan do Elegy than see him skate and fall a lot. I think he's a beautiful blade to ice skater. I like Dai's elegance and skating full of subtle nuances. Surya and Irina were jumpers but I could barely watch them when younger. I think they must revise skating totally and IJS to favor sport to get an audience and to mass audience jumps in the mens are most exciting, but I'd rather watch paul Wylie from the past skate than current skaters who have programs that are about point getting. I will watch no matter what direction FS takes, as long as I have some access to it, but I will always prefer beauty over just jumps.

I loved Stojko, but if I had to choose a skater to watch, it would be another Canadian. Kurt above all others, his past programs, Not to say Elvis wasn't exciting and masterful. I actual liked his martial arts programs as this was truly him at his best. When he tried to be an egyptian, it was dreadful. Awful choreo/costume etc. People need to find their own strength. Some are athletes, some are artists. I prefer mature artists, though we see few these days as skating has no pro future except for a handful of folks. I thinkj it is getting like gymnastics. We will be lucky to have a senior do one quadrennial.

It remains to be seen in the comeback kids from Vancouver and Plushenko of several Olys will even get to Sochi. I always prefer the That's just me. Old fan, lol.
 
Last edited:

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
That explained largely about majority fans preference - artistry first. And I think that is the source of the conflicts between a sport-first scoring and artistry-first audiences.
 
Last edited:

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
A better comparison would be, should we give string theorists partial credit for coming up with an amusing theory, or should we insist on some sort of actual achievement before we start giving out Nobel prizes?
Some "amusing" theories inspire thoughts, opening windows to different views, and thus contribute to the advancement of a scientific discipline. Optimality Theory in Linguistics, for instance, has logical flaws. It is more of a paradigm explaining what might have happened, rather than a theory proving what has happened or will happen. Even so, it has been the hottest linguistic theory of the past decade. I guess one of the reasons for partial credit concerns its inspiration value.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I disagree a bit. Had Yuka's most difficult jump been a 3T she would never have gotten those kind of marks. Yes she did everything well but there's a lot of skaters who do everything well but couldn't pull the marks because they didn't have the most difficult triples. So in that sense a failed 3Z did factor into the scoring and allowed her to score higher than probably a successful 3T would have. (Witt completed a 3T-2T and a clean program but finished one spot ahead of Yuka in the SP).

The funny thing is 5 of the 9 judges had Yuka over Witt, and 2 others had them tied but Witt won since the tech. mark was the tiebreaker. Witt only came out ahead of Yuka due to how the ordinals came out. Yuka was a bit unlucky to not be in the final flight over Witt, and if she were she probably would have won the bronze over Chen with her LP skate that night.

Yuka was just a better skater than Witt at that point, better spins, much better footwork, better speed and basic skating. That is why Yuka and her single lutz almost ended up tied with Witt and her triple toe.
 
Top