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Thread: How do the top men rank now that the season's begun?

  1. #31
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    Early on Takahashi looks the best after Hanyu's Skate Canada meltdown and Chan's Japan Open one, but I am sure Chan will be gifted both the GP final and World Championships as usual even if he falls 5 or 6 times and Hanyu and Takahashi both skate spectacularly with quads, all triples, and great artistry. The mens is a write off and not worth talking about until Chan retires.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I do think it's somewhat interesting how much of a free ride Hanyu has gotten from people given that he gave virtually the exact same performance as Chan did in CoR 2010 (three falls, discounted element in the LP) but Chan was eviscerated alive for it whereas Hanyu's disaster was somehow less of an affront to figure skating enthusiasts. I won't deny that what I see as double standards leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth.
    Hanyu didnt win the event and he placed only 3rd in the LP even in a weak field that saw the #5 or #6 Japanese man today complete a sweep (and beat Hanyu's relative disaester in the LP portion). Kozuka not known for his strong presentation also easily beat Hanyu in PCS after Hanyu's performance. Hence why the discussion naturally wouldnt be the same as Chan extending his never ending win streak and notching the events highest PCS with a similar performance.

  3. #33
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Hanyu didnt win the event and he placed only 3rd in the LP even in a weak field that saw the #5 or #6 Japanese man today complete a sweep (and beat Hanyu's relative disaester in the LP portion). Kozuka not known for his strong presentation also easily beat Hanyu in PCS after Hanyu's performance. Hence why the discussion naturally wouldnt be the same as Chan extending his never ending win streak and notching the events highest PCS with a similar performance.
    Machida is currently No.4 in Japan.

  4. #34
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    ** Dornbush, I agree, will be an interesting story this year. Here's his long from Finlandia: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QbIO...eature=related
    Thanks! I can't say I much like the program - it feels pretty cookie-cutter CoP - but I can't blame him for doing what needs to be done, and there's no question that (apart from the fall) he skated it very well indeed. It'll be interesting to see whether he can 1. deliver at the bigger events 2. skate two strong programs at the same event and 3. improve artistically.

    ** Oda, Oda, Oda! He looked soooo good at Nebelhorn. I missed that guy's skating and I'm glad he's back! I hope he can workout his math problems.
    Maybe he can learn together with his son? I can never get my hopes up with Oda because he has long shown that he's an early-season skater. I don't know if it's difficulty handling pressure or some issue with the training that makes him peak too soon. But there is one thing that I'd be interested in following in his case: if Oda can somehow beat Chan (and the rest of the field) at SC and CoR, he'll have won every GP at least once!

    As an aside, I'd love to see Stephane Lambiel work with more skaters. Id' especially like to see Florent Amodio head his way instead of wasting his talent with Morozov.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I do think it's somewhat interesting how much of a free ride Hanyu has gotten from people given that he gave virtually the exact same performance as Chan did in CoR 2010 (three falls, discounted element in the LP) but Chan was eviscerated alive for it whereas Hanyu's disaster was somehow less of an affront to figure skating enthusiasts. I won't deny that what I see as double standards leaves a bitter after taste in my mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    If Kozuka at Skate America had given the skate Verner did at CoR, Hanyu would've won, (not almost win, won) fwiw, as the short program lead would've been greater than the long program lead.
    This reminds me of some people questioned why there was not much complaint about Daisuke’s win at the 2011 Japanese Nationals with 3 falls in the FS but there was outrage against Patrick’s falls at CoR 2010. I think it’s because that Patrick also had a fall in the SP at CoR and still placed 1st, some people were already unhappy about that. Then the next day he had 3 more falls in the FS, so totally 4 falls at one event and almost won. He also gave up on the performance in the FS but got 81.30 on PCS. Remember at that time it was rare to score more than 80 on PCS.

    Daisuke and Hanyu, OTOH, skated perfectly in the SPs and lost the FS due to 3 falls. Daisuke still had extremely high PCS (86.90) despite the 3 falls and thus beat Kozuka at Japanese Nationals. At SA, Hanyu’s FS PCS dropped below Machida, who also had a fall and whose TES was merely 75.03 (only 2.92 points higher than that of Hanyu) but got 80.14 on PCS. The scoring made some people feel better.

    BTW, I kinda understood why Patrick had more falls than others in 2010 because he was skating more difficult programs. When most others did not attempt 4T in SP, he was one of the few doing quads in both SP and FS. And he had more transitions than most other skaters. I’m glad that he continued to try the quads, otherwise we won’t see so many quads now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Playing devil's advocate, since it's being brought up -- do you have a problem with Hanyu received scores of 7.30 and 7.50 for falling on a Quad Toe and Salchow at the SA LP?

    Actually my husband, being the non fan he is, found that to be the weirdest thing about the scoring system. He went on and on about that on the way home on Monday.
    I think Hanyu received 6.30 and 6.50 for falling on the quads. Remember there are deductions for falls. I’m fine with the current scoring system because I like to see athletes pushing the boundaries and attempting quads. I’m excited that 2014 looks like a repeat of 2002. I don’t want skaters to play it safe and regress to 2010 technical standard.

  6. #36
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    You don't need to reward bad Quads that highly for the athletes to be pushing the technical envelope. As long as clean Quads within a good program result in a win over another competitor if that other person doesn't have a Quad, this is enough to make people do it. Falls on Quads should still be worth some points, but only enough to make it so that attempting a Quad and falling doesn't ruin your score in comparison to an easier layout. Falling on a Quad should be worth about as much as a Double Axel, since that's the jump you have to put into your program if you don't have a Quad.

    To do the math for you, that means falling on a Quad is currently worth about 3 more points than it really should be. The issue isn't just falls, though, but mistakes in general. Stepping out of a Quad really badly can get you 8.3 points, which is just insane. The penalty for falling should actually be decreased and the -GOE penalties should be vastly increased. If you do a jump with -3 GOE quality, but don't fall, that's very nearly as bad as falling anyway. In some cases it's worse, actually...landing a fully-rotated jump on one foot and falling still shows greater accomplishment than landing a barely-rotated jump on two feet, plus stepping out of the landing, plus putting both your hands down on the ice.
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 10-25-2012 at 03:39 AM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You don't need to reward bad Quads that highly for the athletes to be pushing the technical envelope. As long as clean Quads within a good program result in a win over another competitor if that other person doesn't have a Quad, this is enough to make people do it. Falls on Quads should still be worth some points, but only enough to make it so that attempting a Quad and falling doesn't ruin your score in comparison to an easier layout. Falling on a Quad should be worth about as much as a Double Axel, since that's the jump you have to put into your program if you don't have a Quad.
    No, this will make people not doing the quads. What you suggest is similar to the 2010 system that gave Daisuke no points for attempting a 4T. He really should not have attempted 4T in Vancouver. He would have gotten more points without the 4T and probably would have won. I respect Daisuke for still going for the quad. He was such a warrior!

    And notice that most skaters would fall many times before they can get the quad consistent because it’s just so difficult. If Daisuke hadn’t tried 4T many times and fallen many times, then he wouldn’t have improved. Now his 4T is more consistent than before.

    OTOH, I don’t like how Tatsuki won the bronze at SA by playing it safe. Out of 10 skaters, 8 tried quad in SP. Only Tatsuki and Majorov did not try a quad in SP. Tatsuki was able to give a clean performance by leaving the 4T out and got a high 37.13 on his PCS. If Jeremy and Armin didn’t do 4T then they would’ve been clean as well and should’ve outscored Tatsuki. I think there should be some rules to punish skaters such as Tatsuki for playing it safe and to reward skaters who push the boundaries.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I don't think people blame Chan when he falls multiple times and still wins. I think people get frustrated with the system and when we express it the Chan uberfans act like we're too stupid to understand the scoring and be able to identify good skating. Chan is far superior IMO to Hanyu at this point so I also wouldn't score Hanyu as high as the judges did at SA.
    This x a zillion.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Playing devil's advocate, since it's being brought up -- do you have a problem with Hanyu received scores of 7.30 and 7.50 for falling on a Quad Toe and Salchow at the SA LP?

    Actually my husband, being the non fan he is, found that to be the weirdest thing about the scoring system. He went on and on about that on the way home on Monday.
    I have to admit it, I'm with Mr. P.

    The skater straps on his skates. "Hey, everybody, look at the awesome trick I can do! ... Oops. Never mind."

    Figure skating judging should go like this. "You, you and you -- you all fell down. Now, of the guys who are still standing, you got first, you got second, you got third."

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I wish we could actually discuss the top men and their prospects without it descending each time to "who is more overscored", which has been done to death. But apparently I am in the minority.
    You see, Buttercup, who always drags the topic to Chan? The people who don't like Chan! Most of the times, Chan supporters just simply replies to the posts which they thought were unfairly put. I thought it could be a time to discuss the top men with balanced views on all since the time has changed. But it soon ends up with Chan at the center of bashing. Why is Chan so important and so focused on by his detractors?! So many skaters have had multiple falls. So many skaters have had three falls in one program. Yet, they could all be spared and forgotten, or just intentionally ignored. But Chan's three falls or even just one fall wouldn't escape from their pens and minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    p.s. if we don't punish other serious errors on a jump with a zero score, why should falls be different? They may need to receive a lower score than they do now, but certainly not nothing.
    As I've said in other threads before, I'm all for more punishment on multiple falls. But giving 0 on a fall is not fair. Skaters could all do just triples but no quads, so they could avoid a possible 0 effort. That is not right.

  11. #41
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    You see, Buttercup, who always drags the topic to Chan? The people who don't like Chan! Most of the times, Chan supporters just simply replies to the posts which they thought were unfairly put. I thought it could be a time to discuss the top men with balanced views on all since the time has changed. But it soon ends up with Chan at the center of bashing. Why is Chan so important and so focused on by his detractors?! So many skaters have had multiple falls. So many skaters have had three falls in one program. Yet, they could all be spared and forgotten, or just intentionally ignored. But Chan's three falls or even just one fall wouldn't escape from their pens and minds.
    Oh, please. You were the one who did the dragging, don't complain when others join in on a discussion forum. From your very first post in this thread:
    Chan faltered badly at the same event with no URs or DGs but bad landings. Chan's 10 fall or even 5 or 6 fall cushions were proved never existed.
    Next, also by you:
    No offense, I've heard too many times about Chan's advantages, and so on and so on, fair or unfair. Now I just hope to have a place for the same posters and great many others and hear now what they think about this whole top men's field. I think it is a legitimate discussion. Haven't people already crowned Hanyu as the best ever?
    You brought this up yourself; don't pretend to be surprised when others simply replied to the subject you introduced yourself. Cobntrary to how you and some ubers like to claim, Chan fans are not victims, and the constant white-knighting of Chan along with the over the top criticism of anyone perceived as The Competition (Takahashi last year, Hanyu now) is just annoying. I tried to suggest other directions for this thread, but I can't say I'm shocked that people took you up on your invitation to rehash the fall cushion debate. When there are so many more interesting topics in skating in general and regarding the men's field in particular!

    I'm not even going to discuss this further with you. I'm bored.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Patrick Chan, who's made a coaching change, a choreo change, and had a poor start at the JO?
    Daisuke Takahashi, who sadly went back to Morozov; can he show that he is capable of skating to the best of his ability outside Japan? Will the judges take note?
    Yuzuru Hanyu, who's a huge talent but whose stamina remains an issue? Can Brian Orser find the right training regimen for Yuzuru and Pooh?
    Brian Joubert - will his strong finish last season get him going in the right direction? Can he get the FFSG's full support and hold off...
    Florent Amodio, who has traded placements with Joubert both nationally and internationally and whose programs remain rather too Morozovian for many people's tastes?

    Will Javier Fernandez be able to keep going strong for a full season? How will the situation with the Japanese men shake out? Is Nobu back? Will Verner ever be back? Will Brezina ever break through and/or skate two good programs at the same event? Can Plushy win Euros again? Can Gachi return to form? Can the Russian men get at least two spots for the Olympics? Will Abbott ever deliver when it matters? Can Johnny make the World Team? Can Evan? Will Evan really compete? Was Finlandia a one-off for Dornbush or is he the real deal? Is Nathan Chen going to win JW before he even turns 14? Will Jason Brown get a haircut? Is KvdP truly done? Who will be the first to land a ratified 4F and 4R?
    Add all this to Pairs and Ladies anxiety for me and I suddently realised that the season has trully started!
    I hope KVDP is not done btw, I see he trains somewhere now?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Oh, please. You were the one who did the dragging, don't complain when others join in on a discussion forum. From your very first post in this thread:

    Next, also by you:

    You brought this up yourself; don't pretend to be surprised when others simply replied to the subject you introduced yourself. Cobntrary to how you and some ubers like to claim, Chan fans are not victims, and the constant white-knighting of Chan along with the over the top criticism of anyone perceived as The Competition (Takahashi last year, Hanyu now) is just annoying. I tried to suggest other directions for this thread, but I can't say I'm shocked that people took you up on your invitation to rehash the fall cushion debate. When there are so many more interesting topics in skating in general and regarding the men's field in particular!

    I'm not even going to discuss this further with you. I'm bored.
    Then don't!

    You are not suggesting that we should omit Chan's name for good, are you?! After all, he is still in the picture among the top skaters, isn't he?! What I've written merely the truth about where everyone is at this moment. That doesn't mean that I was focusing on Chan.

    Talk about Takahashi, Hanyu, and their up coming competitions. I'm very interested in them, and love the topic.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    You don't need to reward bad Quads that highly for the athletes to be pushing the technical envelope.
    Absolutely you do! It's a must! Most will not try hard to get a quad good. They will just drop them from their program.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Absolutely you do! It's a must! Most will not try hard to get a quad good. They will just drop them from their program.
    ITA. Plus, I wish the current rules will be rightly applied, like there should be -3 goe deduction for no steps preceding the solo jump. Many men doing solo quads in the SP are not doing them out of steps. Kozuka did not get -3 goe at SA for instance. This is so unfair to other skaters like Jeremy who tried to do the 4t out of steps and fell. I’m certain that if Kozuka did his quad out of steps, he’d fall too.

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