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Thread: How do the top men rank now that the season's begun?

  1. #61
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I disagree a bit. Had Yuka's most difficult jump been a 3T she would never have gotten those kind of marks. Yes she did everything well but there's a lot of skaters who do everything well but couldn't pull the marks because they didn't have the most difficult triples. So in that sense a failed 3Z did factor into the scoring and allowed her to score higher than probably a successful 3T would have. (Witt completed a 3T-2T and a clean program but finished one spot ahead of Yuka in the SP)
    6 of the judges gave Witt a higher tech score, with a couple of her spins and her 2F being slightly weaker than Yuka's. The 3T-2Toe was clearly given more credit than the 1Z.

    Anyway, IF what you are saying is true, it denotes something else altogether: reputation judging. It's not judges giving credit for failed jumps.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No scoring system should reward "trying." No scoring system should reward taking a risk but failing. (See definition of "risk" ) No scoring system should reward attempting to do something without success.

    (That's my story and I'm sticking to it. )
    I think it would be interesting to see this idea taken to it's logical endpoint.

  3. #63
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I think it would be interesting to see this idea taken to it's logical endpoint.
    I know. Quite so. It is easy to find examples of jumps that deserve some sort of credit on which the skater can't quite hold the landing, and other jumps that deserve nothing but a big goose egg despite the guy managing to keep his feet.

    IMHO it is not possible to apply principles of logic to figure skating (or to much else in the actual world).

    Still, I think the principle of rewarding achievement rather than "trying" should be insisted on more firmly in figure skating judging. I do not like the argument that we should give greater rewards or less severe penalties for failed quads in order to encourage more skaters to "try."

    "Do or do not." -- Yoda.

  4. #64
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Everything a skater does on the ice requires some amount of energy and skill. It has to be judged how much energy and skill was exerted. Falling on a Quad needs to be worth as much as Double Axel or else 8-Triple programs are worth more than 8 Triple + failed Quad programs, and THAT wouldn't be objectively correct.

  5. #65
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    I don't like Star Wars. Just saying.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No scoring system should reward "trying." No scoring system should reward taking a risk but failing. (See definition of "risk" ) No scoring system should reward attempting to do something without success.

    (That's my story and I'm sticking to it. )
    I thought some mathematic tests gave partial credits for procedures even though the final answers were wrong. But some math tests gave credits only if the final answers were correct.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 10-25-2012 at 09:17 PM.

  7. #67
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Falling on a Quad needs to be worth as much as Double Axel or else 8-Triple programs are worth more than 8 Triple + failed Quad programs, and THAT wouldn't be objectively correct.
    I don't know about objectively, but from a sporting point of view you could have a scenario like this. Both skaters have their eight triples in the bank, with similar marks in other areas. It's crunch time. Are you a man or a mouse?

    Here's your choice. You can play it safe with nice double Axel, hoping that other guy will mess up. Or you can go for the gold with the quad, do or die. It's the "die" part that seems to be missing from the IJS. You can do and win by 7 points or you can die and still win by 1 point. The moderate thrill of backing into victory versus the non-agony of winning even if you mess up.

  8. #68
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I thought some mathematic tests gave partial credits for procedures even though the final answers were wrong. But others gave credits only if the final answers were correct.
    That's true. But we are talking about winning the world championship in a sport, not coddling children along hoping that maybe they will learn something after all if we are gentle enough with them.

    A better comparison would be, should we give string theorists partial credit for coming up with an amusing theory, or should we insist on some sort of actual achievement before we start giving out Nobel prizes?

  9. #69
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Star Wars is AWESOME, don't knock it, IP!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That's true. But we are talking about winning the world championship in a sport, not coddling children along hoping that maybe they will learn something after all if we are gentle enough with them.

    A better comparison would be, should we give string theorists partial credit for coming up with an amusing theory, or should we insist on some sort of actual achievement before we start giving out Nobel prizes?
    1. Would you be okay for partial credit for juniors and novices then?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Star Wars is AWESOME, don't knock it, IP!
    You spelled terrible incorrectly! :D

  12. #72
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    ok I didn't get that for over 2 minutes... I am not blonde... just sleep deprived... I will be glaring at your profile for teh rest of the year.

  13. #73
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. Would you be okay for partial credit for juniors and novices then?
    In practices, yes. Give them encouragement by all mens.

    But I still think it would be OK to say, now you are in your first competition, the judges are going to treat you like a big boy. You have to really concentrate on that double Salchow or you won't get any points for it.

  14. #74
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    In practices, yes. Give them encouragement by all mens.
    "by all mens"... but not by the ladies?

  15. #75
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    you spelled" the" wrong...it is fast typing or u transpose teh from the all the time. but i am typing with no caps and make mistakes as I sleep little and sometimes half medicated to sleep. so what...grammar, spelling etc. are not impt unless it's atrocious and unreadable...I haven't read the thread except the end seems to be about the jump credits issue again. So glad I skipped it

    So many great men skating...I go for the artistry...who cares about under rotattions...nitpicking in a 7-8 triple program with spins, footwork. I think slo mo and the new IJS are wrecking skating, I realy do. How many Oly gold medalists can rotate 7 -8 triples plus quad perfectly? None I'll bet. Maybe Yuna but she has other flaws outside jumping. Much ado about the wrong things. It's the emotional impact/beauty that matters most. Art over perfectly rotated jumps should win the day, any day.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 10-25-2012 at 10:10 PM.

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