Skate Canada 2012 Ladies - Long Program (7:45 AM PST/10:45 AM EST)

[SubRosa]

I have no clue of how to interpret this. The easiest is that the judges have no clue what to do. Kaetlyn's SP was much cleaner than the FP, usually by default that should mean her PCS for SP should have been higher than the FP. Perhaps, the judges lowballed her short because she was first and unknown. Why the dramatic increase in the component scores for the free is beyond me.

I think you just answered your own question.

This is my perception of figure skating judging: the biggest error a judge can commit is to give scores that are outliers compared to those of the rest of the panel. So you give marks, in part, based on what marks you think the other judges are going to give. When Kaetlyn was underscored in the short (first skater, in her first GP event, not unexpected that the judges would lowball her), I'm betting what goes through a judges mind is "oops, I bet the other judges are going to boost her PCS in the long, guess I'd better do that too." And so they over-compensate, based not necessarily on the skating but on what they think the other judges will do.

The only politics at play are of the peer-pressure variety. Not even direct peer-pressure, but perceived peer-pressure: I have to guess what the other judges are going to do, and do the same. If I don't, I risk getting a black mark against me and losing my cushy judging assignments.

There you go: a rational explanation for irrational judging!

[Mrs. P]

I think you just answered your own question.

This is my perception of figure skating judging: the biggest error a judge can commit is to give scores that are outliers compared to those of the rest of the panel. So you give marks, in part, based on what marks you think the other judges are going to give. When Kaetlyn was underscored in the short (first skater, in her first GP event, not unexpected that the judges would lowball her), I'm betting what goes through a judges mind is "oops, I bet the other judges are going to boost her PCS in the long, guess I'd better do that too." And so they over-compensate, based not necessarily on the skating but on what they think the other judges will do.

The only politics at play are of the peer-pressure variety. Not even direct peer-pressure, but perceived peer-pressure: I have to guess what the other judges are going to do, and do the same. If I don't, I risk getting a black mark against me and losing my cushy judging assignments.

There you go: a rational explanation for irrational judging!

Interesting analysis. That is the problem with corridor judging -- you get into trouble if you give outlier scores (even if they are correct), but on the other hand you end up giving scores you wouldn't give otherwise.

[tulosai]

I just want to say for the record that I have not seen one post I would say was attacking Osmond, or at least making a 'personal attack' on her. Many people have said they think she should have placed second (or lower) and have said why. While many of them have mentioned things about her skating in this analysis, that is not attacking or bashing her. It is offering a legitimate (and in my opinion correct, but it's just my opinion) of where her skating skills are right now relative to Suzuki's (as well as a critique of her technical errors).

People who consider this to be attacking or bashing Osmond do not, I feel, understand what those terms mean.

[sky_fly20]

Katelyn same PCS same as Akiko is that a joke ?

[wallylutz]

Of course she can skate. But in this performance Suzuki's choreography and interpretation were markedly superior to Osmond's, and this should have been reflected in those component scores.

Not meant to pick on you, Mathman. Since many people here stated more or less the same thing over and over without explaining why it is so, can you or anyone else explain your reasoning briefly in plain English as to why this is the case? I think this would help a great deal in reassuring that there is a legitimate reason for the vile comments towards the judging panel and serious accusations of conspiracy and corruptions; which I must say could be construed as blasphemy in many jurisdictions - not that anyone is going to be taken to the court over this, just pointing out that words have consequences. I don't think some of the posters realize how serious their allegations are even though this is just a skating forum.

I also quoted you because I know you can be reasoned with; some others, I am not sure. I saw both performances and have made some observations. The best way for me to share them is through a dialogue with a few people who are here to discuss this openly and honestly seeking a dialogue. So if you are up for it (or anyone else who is willing) to answer the open question marked in blue and we'll start from this, cool?

[bellafurr]

Irrational judging, SkateCanada is corrupt. Congragulations Kaetlyn on your win.

[ivy]

I wonder with close results like this about the trimming of the scores. Is this the current way - high, low and x(?) number of random scores are tossed, the rest are averaged? Or is it just high/low tossed? There is 1.29 pts between them. Could results be different is different scores were tossed?

[sky_fly20]

For some perspective, Christina Gao scored 117.62 at Skate America with a squeaky clean 6-triple program. Her PCS was 57.

So basically Skate Canada judges say that a 4-clean-triple Osmond is only 2 points worse than a 6-triple clean program from Gao?

even Gao didn't have a skyrocketed PCS, Osmond winning is more laughable than Chan's falls
this is one of the most corrupted GP's event ever

[lavender]

bluesky85
I agree that Katelyn's PCS was a bit too high for her actual performance and her TES and shouldn't have been so close to Akiko's.... I like both of their skating. They deserved good results. But I also recognize that the judges were biased towards Canadian skaters this time And I feel that the same thing has happened many many many times in Japan, Russia, and possibly in the US, too, which makes me sad and disappointed at the sports. Figure skating is the most beautiful sports but it is also the sport that is affected by politics the most.
[/B]

I agree and it use to make me sad. This sport doesn't get to me anymore because I'm not exactly in love with fs anymore and this is one of the reasons.

[drivingmissdaisy]

Not meant to pick on you, Mathman. Since many people here stated more or less the same thing over and over without explaining why it is so, can you or anyone else explain your reasoning briefly in plain English as to why this is the case? I think this would help a great deal in reassuring that there is a legitimate reason for the vile comments towards the judging panel and serious accusations of conspiracy and corruptions; which I must say could be construed as blasphemy in many jurisdictions - not that anyone is going to be taken to the court over this, just pointing out that words have consequences. I don't think some of the posters realize how serious their allegations are even though this is just a skating forum.

I also quoted you because I know you can be reasoned with; some others, I am not sure. I saw both performances and have made some observations. The best way for me to share them is through a dialogue with a few people who are here to discuss this openly and honestly seeking a dialogue. So if you are up for it (or anyone else who is willing) to answer the open question marked in blue and we'll start from this, cool?

Well for starters, her PCS rose substantially, over a half point, on all criteria from the SP to the LP. I did not notice any aspect of her skating or performance that improved substantially overnight. Personally, I thought her SP choreography and performance were superior to her LP, but I would not have been alarmed had she received the same PCS for both programs.

I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, but rather poor judging.

[millie]

Hey people give Kaetlyn Osmond a chance....Because she is a new and upcoming skater and not as well know as Akiko Suzuki does not mean that she was GIVEN the scores that she received....That's why we have judges to judge the skaters. It seems that Suzuki is a favourite...I think that no matter who won today, some people would be crying foul. Congratulations to Kaetlyn and the way for her to prove herself is for her to knock the socks of the other skaters in the next competition. You go girl.

[Mrs. P]

Not meant to pick on you, Mathman. Since many people here stated more or less the same thing over and over without explaining why it is so, can you or anyone else explain your reasoning briefly in plain English as to why this is the case? I think this would help a great deal in reassuring that there is a legitimate reason for the vile comments towards the judging panel and serious accusations of conspiracy and corruptions; which I must say could be construed as blasphemy in many jurisdictions - not that anyone is going to be taken to the court over this, just pointing out that words have consequences. I don't think some of the posters realize how serious their allegations are even though this is just a skating forum.

I also quoted you because I know you can be reasoned with; some others, I am not sure. I saw both performances and have made some observations. The best way for me to share them is through a dialogue with a few people who are here to discuss this openly and honestly seeking a dialogue. So if you are up for it (or anyone else who is willing) to answer the open question marked in blue and we'll start from this, cool?

I'll give it a try, wallylutz. But I will preface by saying the following:

1.) This discussion should not take away from the fact that Kaetlyn had a great debut here. She easily deserved the podium here, no doubt, even the silver medal.
2.) I hope you will see that many posters are not biting on the conspiracy theories. I am not going to go there. My posts on this topic has strictly been about what I SAW not what I perceive.

Okay, here goes.

Katelyn's strength is that she has a lot of power and personality. That is a fantastic thing and she should be proud that she can express herself so much at such at a young age. But I don't think she necessarily interpreted the music of Carmen that well. I felt she really relied on her outgoing personality to perform Carmen music and really missed out on the nuances. I think if you turn off the sound, you wouldn't be able to tell she was skating to Carmen. Finally, I don't feel she had any super impressive choreography. So overall great performance, but I don't think she was impressive in the other categories.

Akiko on the other hand had a program with more subtles and the music is not easy to interpret. The jumps were well timed to different parts of the music, a reflection of great choreography. During every moment of the performance, she took time to skate to every nuance of that music, good interpretation. And of course she can project herself to the audience well. Again, if you turn off the sound, you probably wouldn't guess she was skating to Cirque de Soeli, but you could at least figure out the genre and quality of the music of the skating.

[burntBREAD]

Not meant to pick on you, Mathman. Since many people here stated more or less the same thing over and over without explaining why it is so, can you or anyone else explain your reasoning briefly in plain English as to why this is the case? I think this would help a great deal in reassuring that there is a legitimate reason for the vile comments towards the judging panel and serious accusations of conspiracy and corruptions; which I must say could be construed as blasphemy in many jurisdictions - not that anyone is going to be taken to the court over this, just pointing out that words have consequences. I don't think some of the posters realize how serious their allegations are even though this is just a skating forum.

I also quoted you because I know you can be reasoned with; some others, I am not sure. I saw both performances and have made some observations. The best way for me to share them is through a dialogue with a few people who are here to discuss this openly and honestly seeking a dialogue. So if you are up for it (or anyone else who is willing) to answer the open question marked in blue and we'll start from this, cool?

I'll respond to this too, although I won't be here later so I'm probably only going to have a few posts. This isn't going to be that brief, sorry!!

I think that Kaetlyn Osmond is a very pleasant skater with strong jumps and a good presence on ice. However, I felt that in her LP, her PCS was either too high (or Suzuki's was too low). Her transitions are good, so I have no complaints with those being close to/equal to Suzuki; on the other hand, I think Suzuki has some of the best SS in the world, and Osmond needs to work on her SS to get to that level (likely a difference between a 28 year old veteran vs. a 16 year old newcomer).

Also, as another poster referred to earlier, her coach noted that they purposely choreographed this program in a more "junior" style so she could ease her way into seniors, which is not a bad plan by any means. But this program beat Suzuki's program in choreography, performance, and interpretation (all of which are the more subjective PCS categories), and I felt that Suzuki's program was more balanced, well choreographed with an interesting theme, and mature. Aside from the energy she brought to the program, I didn't feel like Osmond captured the Carmen theme (I felt like it was lacking variation) as well as Suzuki captured her "bird" theme.

(I agree with Mrs. P, she said what I wanted to say in a much less vague manner)

[bigsisjiejie]

Osmond's blade-to-ice skills are not in the same league with Suzuki's. Nor even with Murakami's.

[sky_fly20]

with that said now I want her to have another GP assignment
maybe TEB ? so Osmond can go head to head with Julia, Ashley and Liza and see how they score her there