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Thread: Can Gracie Gold handle the pressure?

  1. #166
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Well people would be fine with that, the issue is many feel USFSA RIGS Nationals.
    I am clinging tightly to the hope that this is not the case. If skating contests are rigged, then it doesn't matter who we send anywhere or by what selection process, or what they do when they get there.

    But I can't completely wrap my mind around how this supposed rigging takes place. Does the President of the USFSA send around a memo to all the judges? Do the judges meet beforehand to decide who to throw the contest to? Is there just a feeling ion the air that [this skater is the one we want to send to worlds no matter what?

    It seems like if there is a big conspiracy year after year involving dozens of people, sooner or later some disgruntled judge, coach, or official would spill the beans.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    This years Worlds will be one of the toughest ladies Worlds in years. If we assume Kim, Asada, and Kostner are the podium in some order after that you have Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva, Wagner, Osmond, Gold, Korpi, Suzuki, and Murakami all fighting for spots 4th to 11th. One of those skaters who could possibly finish top 5 or even win a medal if Asada or Kostner bombs, will finish right out of the top 10, atleast 1. Is there anyone I am forgetting worth note?

    Wagner and Gold could regain 3 spots but both will have to have a good competition. Or if one has a somewhat bad competition they have to hope they can survive for an 8th or 9th place and the other comes atleast 4th or 5th.
    Oh, it's the most brutal worlds since 2009, that's for sure.

  3. #168
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Do you have proof of this--a video of Gracie's practice, perhaps?
    I suspect goldseal will point to the videos from SLC after the SP where she looked nervously at Alex when she came off the ice and inched as close to Scott Brown in KNC as she reasonably could...Alex IS tough and demanding, that I can atest to, but she doesn't need "grace" - she got a 56 PCS for an arguably BAD skate, so she just needs to skate well...

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Slightly

    R.D. said it best -- Gracie can still edge into the Top 10 with a few falters, but Christina must be nearly perfect. Sending Christina, who gets neither high PCS nor high TES internationally, would be a mistake.
    If you will check the protocols from the just held 4CC, you will see that Gao got higher TES and PCS scores than Gold in both the short and long programs.
    In fact, Gao's TES score in the long was about 7 points higher than Gold's. This was an international competition. Your and R.D.'s views seem to be, at least, questionable.
    Last edited by Icey; 02-12-2013 at 09:37 AM.

  5. #170
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Gao made NO mistakes in the SP and ONE mistake in the LP. Gold made two mistakes in the SP (and was only behind by 2 points) and 5 or 6 mistakes in the LP. Gold's upside potential for score is higher if she just REDUCES the number of errors. Gao would have to be nearly-perfect to improve her score.

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    Competitions are not won on IF's. As you well know, they are won by what the skater puts out on the ice at the competition. What is the basis of thinking Gold will not continue her pattern at worlds? In her last two competitions she has had a poor showing in either the short or long program. So she really shows no consistent strength in either. Maybe, in future years that will change, but not this year imo. Right now Christiana is steadier and would increase our chances of getting 3 spots if Ashley does as hoped. Your statement is more supportive of my position than your own.
    Last edited by Icey; 02-12-2013 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am clinging tightly to the hope that this is not the case. If skating contests are rigged, then it doesn't matter who we send anywhere or by what selection process, or what they do when they get there.

    But I can't completely wrap my mind around how this supposed rigging takes place. Does the President of the USFSA send around a memo to all the judges? Do the judges meet beforehand to decide who to throw the contest to? Is there just a feeling ion the air that [this skater is the one we want to send to worlds no matter what?

    It seems like if there is a big conspiracy year after year involving dozens of people, sooner or later some disgruntled judge, coach, or official would spill the beans.
    Thank you! thank you! A voice of reason. I've been wondering the same thing. How does the USFSA pull off this nefarious plot year after year? I can readily agree that they push one skater over another with plum GP assignments, etc. but I just cannot buy that the judges are in their back pockets and so easily influenced. Someone somewhere would blow the whistle!!!! Now I CAN see where at international competitions it certainly helps a country's team to have one of their own on the judging panel. But that's ONE PERSON! I want to be naive and believe that the judges are generally fair using their knowledge and the technical assistance of the tech judges to make their decisions. I want to think that they do the very best they can given the timeframe they have to render a judgement. But I also believe wholeheartedly that when someone's favorite doesn't win, or is bested by another skater, that the first place they go to whine is the judging panel. Until this sport figures out some way to electronically judge skaters and take the human factor out (!!!!!!!) we're "stuck" with human beings making their calls given the information they see and hear.

    As for Gracie, her "inconsistency" and her future..........two words: Ashley and Wagner (until last year!) She's YOUNG people. Give her a damn chance.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    If you will check the protocols from the just held 4CC, you will see that Gao got higher TES and PCS scores than Gold in both the short and long programs.
    In fact, Gao's TES score in the long was about 7 points higher than Gold's. This was an international competition. Your and R.D.'s views seem to be, at least, questionable.
    What's questionable about pointing out something that we all witnessed? Even sloppy, Gold made it into the Top 6 at a major international competition. The protocols attest to that.

    Gold's FS was, to put it kindly, a disaster. One fall, one edge call, one popped jump...how could her TES possibly be higher than Gao's?

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    I suspect goldseal will point to the videos from SLC after the SP where she looked nervously at Alex when she came off the ice and inched as close to Scott Brown in KNC as she reasonably could...Alex IS tough and demanding, that I can atest to, but she doesn't need "grace" - she got a 56 PCS for an arguably BAD skate, so she just needs to skate well...
    All coaches on the international level are tough and demanding. Look at John Nicks, Alexei Mishin, Brian Orser, etc. But accusing a coach of psychologically harming his skater is a ridiculous accusation without concrete proof. If Gracie truly feels that Alex is contributing to her consistency issues, then she can leave him. Simple as that.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    But I can't completely wrap my mind around how this supposed rigging takes place. Does the President of the USFSA send around a memo to all the judges? Do the judges meet beforehand to decide who to throw the contest to? Is there just a feeling ion the air that [this skater is the one we want to send to worlds no matter what?
    The last one is the only one that makes sense to me.

    But even so, the skater still needs to deliver (e.g., even if such a feeling existed going into 2013 Nationals, if Gold had skated the long not much better than she did in the short, she wouldn't be going to Worlds).

  11. #176
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noskates View Post
    Thank you! thank you! A voice of reason. I've been wondering the same thing. How does the USFSA pull off this nefarious plot year after year? I can readily agree that they push one skater over another with plum GP assignments, etc. but I just cannot buy that the judges are in their back pockets and so easily influenced. Someone somewhere would blow the whistle!!!! Now I CAN see where at international competitions it certainly helps a country's team to have one of their own on the judging panel. But that's ONE PERSON! I want to be naive and believe that the judges are generally fair using their knowledge and the technical assistance of the tech judges to make their decisions. I want to think that they do the very best they can given the timeframe they have to render a judgement. But I also believe wholeheartedly that when someone's favorite doesn't win, or is bested by another skater, that the first place they go to whine is the judging panel. Until this sport figures out some way to electronically judge skaters and take the human factor out (!!!!!!!) we're "stuck" with human beings making their calls given the information they see and hear.
    Well, you are being naive if you believe that the general placing of these championships hasn't been decided beforehand. I don't know how long you've been watching skating but that is exactly what happens. Someone wrote an article on it a while ago (I think it was in regards to worlds) about how the judges and officials attend the skaters' practices to assess them there. Based on what they see they can start drawing conclusions about who should place where.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanatic View Post
    Well, you are being naive if you believe that the general placing of these championships hasn't been decided beforehand. I don't know how long you've been watching skating but that is exactly what happens. Someone wrote an article on it a while ago (I think it was in regards to worlds) about how the judges and officials attend the skaters' practices to assess them there. Based on what they see they can start drawing conclusions about who should place where.
    Well...I mean, I get that this can SOMETIMES lead to spotty judging, but is it really a bad thing that people are taking into consideration a skaters' previous achievements, titles, and their practice sessions? I've also heard that sometimes a skater can discern whether they're doing something the judges think needs improvement because of communications during practice (in other words, a judge seeing you beforehand can help you). I guess I'm just saying that this seem like a perfectly normal and human thing to have memory and judge a skater as a whole. I'd say, even, that how a skater present him/herself off the ice is also influential (like Kwan, or on the other side, Tanya). I want fair judging, but I wouldn't want everything to be decided as if we're immune to the past either.

  13. #178
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    As I understand it, the intention of judges watching practices at the event is to know what to expect from the skaters so that they can be more accurate in judging what they actually put on the ice during the competition.

    Which isn't to say that judges might not sometimes abuse that knowledge and actively consider what they saw in practice or what they know about the skater's past results, but that is not the intention behind watching practices. And undoubtedly there are unconscious effects of what they already know about the skaters.

    But they're already going to be familiar with some skaters' skating from having judged them before or having heard about their high-profile results. So I think the best argument in favor of watching practices is to become familiar with all the skaters in this event, to level the playing field and reduce the effect of reputation affecting the scores.


    The top skaters who already have international assignments or are in consideration for being given a fall assignment also get monitored in practices at other times during the year to get advice on how their programs are working and what they should work on to better represent the US at their internationals. But that's a separate process.

  14. #179
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkuang View Post
    Well...I mean, I get that this can SOMETIMES lead to spotty judging, but is it really a bad thing that people are taking into consideration a skaters' previous achievements, titles, and their practice sessions? I've also heard that sometimes a skater can discern whether they're doing something the judges think needs improvement because of communications during practice (in other words, a judge seeing you beforehand can help you). I guess I'm just saying that this seem like a perfectly normal and human thing to have memory and judge a skater as a whole. I'd say, even, that how a skater present him/herself off the ice is also influential (like Kwan, or on the other side, Tanya). I want fair judging, but I wouldn't want everything to be decided as if we're immune to the past either.
    Things should be taken into account but sometimes when the placement or general idea of placements is predetermined it makes it a lot tougher for other skaters to breakthrough. OR, like in Christina's case, skaters do well but aren't scored correctly. I honestly think Christina had a fair case for bronze given her performances. Her mistakes in her programs weren't as bad as Agnes' and (taking into account her season) she had an overall better season than Agnes. Her programs were better choreographed and delivered than Courtney Hicks as well. Christina should not have ended up 5th again...and Agnes shouldn't have gone to 4CC. They should have given that spot to Courtney if she wanted it...

  15. #180
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    I say you never know. I think the usfsa is just hoping Gold is that one that can just do it on that one day. The less expectation the better.

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