Can Gracie Gold handle the pressure? | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Can Gracie Gold handle the pressure?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
We don't really have do guess what Sasha "might have got." We can see what she did get. For instance, at her her silver medal performance at 2005 Worlds (beating Kwan and Kostner, and with no actual falls) she got

Jump GOEs: -0.14, 0.71, 0.86, -1.00, -1.71, 0.43, 0.00 (multiply by .7 for equivalent scores now)

Levels: spins, two level 2's, one level 3; steps, one level 2, one level 3

PCS: all high 7's.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
A better measure might be 2010 Nationals, even accounting for generous US judges, because the rules were closer to what they are now.

SP score was 69.63. 6.11 of that was for the spiral sequence, which no longer exists as a SP element, and which was a strong advantage for Cohen.

Subtract that and her score would be 63.52.

PCS: 7.14-7.96

But the question is are we talking about Cohen at her peak (2004-2006?) skills? Cohen at her 2010 skill level? 2013 skills without having trained seriously for 3 years? Cohen as she might be in 2014 if she started training again?
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
But Cohen is finished now so it does no good to belabor the point. Sorry for bringing her up.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
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Jun 16, 2010
Flatt was doing well the last competition before World.
Czisny couldn't land a single jump the last competition before World.

Not the same at all. There's no reason to pull Flatt. There was a good reason to pull Czisny.

Like I said by Worlds Flatt was clearly injured, and too injured to skate respectably. Are you actually denying this fact. Just because she wasnt too injured at the competition a month before Worlds doesnt mean she was able to skate at Worlds. Anyway at that competition you mentioned she did well she still got beaten badly by the person who would have replaced her on the World team.

Czisny and Flatt both gave the USFSA a big middle finger by skating at Worlds and acted irresponsability, and karma is paying both ladies back the way they deserved to as their careers are essentialy over both ever since.
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
Because everyone else sucked even worse. She would be 10th or so in the 2010 Olympics.

Yes this is true. Anyone who thinks Sasha with her Turin performances would have been anywhere near the Vancouver podium needs to get off the crackpipe. Many would argue the 06 Turin ladies event was the worst in history, even Kwan fans argue she could have won there despite that she was way past her prime and not a COP skater, and before the Games even Kwan fans conceded the best she could hope for was about 5th place. By contrast the 2010 ladies event was probably the strongest in history. In Sashas prime she never won a major title, and she peaked in a weak transition period when Kwan and Slutskaya were old and beat up with injuries, Arakawa was insanely inconsistent, Hughes burnt out and left quickly, Suguri never became a great skater, and the youngsters were either age ineligible or not ready yet. She wouldnt have even been regularly top 3 or 4 in the 07-2010 quad as she was in 2003-2006.

I also disagree with kwanatic calling her a headcase though. Her inability to skate clean programs and making a few jump mistakes were the result of very poor jump technique. Her technique was too poor to go through programs with 7 clean triples, other than the occasional fluke. I actually think she was quite mentally tough. Skaters with way better jump technique often went through on average making many more mistakes than her with her poor jump technique and poor basic skating (which contributes as well to jump consistency, and ability to hold landing edges with success). She was a real fighter, just not a talented jumper, like she was in many other areas of the sport. She also neglected for whatever reason to improve her jump technique as the years went on.
 
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pangtongfan

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Joined
Jun 16, 2010
A better measure might be 2010 Nationals, even accounting for generous US judges, because the rules were closer to what they are now.

SP score was 69.63. 6.11 of that was for the spiral sequence, which no longer exists as a SP element, and which was a strong advantage for Cohen.

Subtract that and her score would be 63.52.

PCS: 7.14-7.96

But the question is are we talking about Cohen at her peak (2004-2006?) skills? Cohen at her 2010 skill level? 2013 skills without having trained seriously for 3 years? Cohen as she might be in 2014 if she started training again?

National scores mean nothing. Flatt even scored in the 70 range twice in the SP at Nationals. The Shibutanis often score over 70 in the SD and over 100 in the FD over the years at Nationals. If you want to use Nationals scores as a barometer than subtract atleast 5 points per SP (or SD) and atleast 10 points per LP (or FD) for every single skater.

Sasha two footed and URed her triple lutz combo at the 2010 Nationals (although neither was called or graded). If she did that performance at the Vancouver Games she would have barely broken 60.
 
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James R

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Oct 26, 2009
I made lots of posts last night which were erased. :(

Both sad and humorous to see so much Sasha hate living on in so many jealous skating fans.

Sasha had plenty of faults, mainly jumping consistency and not trusting coaches / screwing up her training. But she proved herself time and again under CoP. Her PCS blew almost everyone out of the water and her TES was strong even with falls. She was always a serious contender for a medal (usually for a gold medal) and her programs were actually PROGRAMS, even despite the straight jacket of CoP, rather than just a 4 minute sequence of required elements set to music. If she hadn't wasted a critical year of training fooling around with acting, and trusted in coaches & trainers instead of trying to do it herself, she certainly would have been in Vancouver duking it out with Yuna. No way she would have won given Yuna's ridiculous ride, but it would have been a great fight and she'd have had a very good chance of medaling, barring age-related injuries like the ones that doomed Kwan's final Olympic attempt.

Sasha Cohen - still the last US lady to win an Olympic ladies medal, still the standard by which other US ladies are measured.
 
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lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think had Sasha competed more leading up to the Olympics she probably would have made the U.S. team and battled for the podium if clean however I think they are looking more for Michelle type consistency. That seems to be the thing they are hoping for more along with a 3/3 and if they happen to have Michelle/Sasha type artistry then it’s a bonus.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Czisny and Flatt both gave the USFSA a big middle finger by skating at Worlds and acted irresponsability, and karma is paying both ladies back the way they deserved to as their careers are essentialy over both ever since.

Crazy isn't it?

The scariest thing is that Wagner could potentially be headed down a similar path...*shudder* the 2008ers are all "cursed" it seems :eek:

If you go further back- Nagasu missing the world team being in 3rd the year after blowing it BIG TIME at worlds. Had she landed just that 2A, she would have gone to worlds in 2011, too.
 

James R

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
I think had Sasha competed more leading up to the Olympics she probably would have made the U.S. team and battled for the podium if clean however I think they are looking more for Michelle type consistency. That seems to be the thing they are hoping for more along with a 3/3 and if they happen to have Michelle/Sasha type artistry then it’s a bonus.

This will anger many, but while Michelle was great, she skated mostly under 6.0 and was somewhat held up in scoring by her own hype and legacy. Not saying she wasn't the most amazing US lady of recent times, but she was definitely handed at least some of those golds. Also, Michelle was probably quite unique in terms of how hard she worked for it. So for both reasons of rarity of the incredible work ethic she put forth, and for the changes in the judging system which forces TE beyond what Michelle could really do, I don't see "Michelle Kwan consistency" happening again... ever. It's just never going to happen.

Sasha Cohen... that could maybe happen again. Someone that has incredible ability, struggles with some things but can win for us "if she's clean." We haven't really seen it quite yet. Alissa almost got there... a lot of girls were hyped but never reached that level. Sasha started in gymnastics and trained a lot of ballet, so now that I think about it that's pretty unique too.

It's probably unfair to hold new skaters to either Michelle's consistency or Sasha's ability ... maybe it's best to look at who's winning now and figure out what they're doing and how to replicate it. How DO the Japanese sweep podiums now anyway? Did they really grow so many inherently talented skaters, or is it cultural? Work ethic and talent for math to squeeze all the points they can? Maybe USFSA should focus on having FS mathematicians available to work with the coaches and help our skaters win more points.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
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Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
James R, I'm sorry your posts were lost. I lost quite a few myself, due to the server move.

I hope that they will be restored soon.

Our apologies for losing them.
 

noskates

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 11, 2012
Well James R, I guess I don't see any Sasha hate going on - just alot of people being realistic. Her jump technique was not good and that was often her undoing! And like I said before, when she fell it was like she just sat down on the landing. But I don't think she's by any means the standard by which other US ladies are measured. At least I hope not! Just winning a medal doesn't make you the paragon of the sport! I would still hazard a guess that Michelle is the standard due to the many medals she won. And before you say something about an Olympic medal (and Michelle did have two) one of the greatest skaters of ALL TIME (in my opinion) is Kurt Browning. And he never won a gold medal at the Olympics and was a role model for many to come after him.

I would tend to agree with you that the Japanese have perhaps a stronger work ethic and maybe a tougher row to hoe. Who knows. Why is Canada generally very strong in mens figure skating and the ladies tend to not be so strong? Alot of ladies with potential who never quite realize it. One of those topics that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm............
 

James R

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Oct 26, 2009
Well James R, I guess I don't see any Sasha hate going on - just alot of people being realistic.

It's not at all "realistic" to dismiss Sasha's accomplishments and abilities as a second-rate skater, which a few people above did, saying her old SPs "wouldn't even score 60" and other extremely questionable comparisons. Sasha Cohen won the OSM even with 2 falls under CoP. The reason was the massive quality of her program and her skating. Her medal record is certainly impressive to me, even if it includes a lot of silver. Has any US lady in the last 20 years (other than Kwan obv) even approached Sasha's medal record? No US lady since has won any OMs. Interestingly, Mirai did come "close" to winning Olympic bronze but I dunno how close 12 points off is, really.

I could be wrong but I don't remember a LOT of instances of her "just sitting down" on the landing. There was the Worlds where she sabotaged herself by going running for a long time the day before the FS. I think her legs collapsed on that one. A lot of the time I remember her failing to rotate to complete the jump or having her skates collide on the landing. Yep, probably a bad technique, which was quite a shame considering what would have been possible if she'd had a good technique. We never really know what goes on behind the scenes and that's what's a bit maddening about seeing great skaters fail. Do they just need a better coach / jump coach, or perhaps a better coach for them? Ashley seems to be doing a lot better under Nicks. What does Gracie Gold need to start landing the jumps she's capable of? Is she really getting the coaching she needs to hack it in Sochi?

Sasha started doing really well under Tarasova, but quit that partnership really quickly. That may have been her worst mistake, in retrospect.
 
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mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
It's been one full Olympic cycle since Sasha, so saying "no US lady has won an Olympic medal since Sasha" makes it seem like the difference between Boitano's OGM and Lysacek's OGM (which was actually 22 years) when it's not, it's 6 seasons right now. :sarcasm: The US ladies have this Worlds and a whole season to get it together and potentially make the World and Olympic podium...
 
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drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
The US ladies have this Worlds and a whole season to get it together and potentially make the World and Olympic podium...

They need to get it together at Worlds this year because skaters have to have a solid reputation to be competitive for high Olympic placements. I think Liz Manley (1988 OSM) was the last woman to have won an Olympic medal without having medalled at a previous World Championship.
 

FlattFan

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Jan 4, 2010
Sasha Cohen... that could maybe happen again. Someone that has incredible ability, struggles with some things but can win for us "if she's clean." We haven't really seen it quite yet. Alissa almost got there... a lot of girls were hyped but never reached that level. Sasha started in gymnastics and trained a lot of ballet, so now that I think about it that's pretty unique too.

What incredible ability?
Sasha was lucky to compete in a weak era. She wouldn't be anywhere near the podium circa 2007-2010, even at her best. Sasha is flexible, so she can do some beautiful spins and spirals (not necessarily earning the most points) but that is the extend of her ability. The rest of her skating is second-tier and third-tier.
 

James R

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Joined
Oct 26, 2009
Worlds 2005
Sasha Cohen (silver) 214.39

Worlds 2006
Sasha Cohen (bronze) 208.88

Olympics 2010
Mao Asada (silver) 205.50

Worlds 2010
Mao Asada (gold) 197.58

I have no interest in conversing with you further. If you keep posting obvious lies to slander Sasha unfairly, I'll just start reporting the posts.
 
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R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Actually, if I'm not mistaken - aren't Cohen's scores from 2005 and 2006 Worlds higher because of the QR? So the SP + FS score is actually lower in that case.

Anyway, we're off on a major tangent, so back to Miss Gold...
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Actually, if I'm not mistaken - aren't Cohen's scores from 2005 and 2006 Worlds higher because of the QR? So the SP + FS score is actually lower in that case.

Anyway, we're off on a major tangent, so back to Miss Gold...

Yes you are correct.

Probably more accurate compare SP and LP only.

Sasha SP: 66.73 (OLY 2006)
Sasha SP: 66.62 (Worlds 2006)
Sasha FS: 116.63 (OLY 2006)
Sasha FS: 114.67 (Worlds 2006)

Mao SP: 73.78 (OLY 2010)
Mao SP: 68.08 (Worlds 2010)
Mao FS: 131.72 (OLY 2010)
Mao FS: 129.50 (Worlds 2010)

Yes we're on a tangent, but I figured I close the loop.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Worlds 2005
Sasha Cohen (silver) 214.39

Worlds 2006
Sasha Cohen (bronze) 208.88

Olympics 2010
Mao Asada (silver) 205.50

Worlds 2010
Mao Asada (gold) 197.58

I have no interest in conversing with you further. If you keep posting obvious lies to slander Sasha unfairly, I'll just start reporting the posts.

If you keep posting obvious lies to slander Sasha unfairly, you need help. :rolleye:
 
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