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Thread: Can Gracie Gold handle the pressure?

  1. #196
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    I wonder who would die to have a Cohen in the mix right now?
    Not me! That's for sure. Sasha was another one of those skaters who would cause me to grit my teeth and bury my fingernails in my palms just waiting for her to fall. And she generally did. The thing about her falls was even weird - she would just kind of sit down on a landing like she hadn't fought hard enough for the it. Her presentation and artistry was always exemplary but didn't care much for the rest of her skating. I was happy she medaled when she did but I would not be in line to kill to get her back and I really don't think she would do well under this scoring system.

    But I have to agree with whoever said upthread that the reason I think people are micro-obsessed about Gracie, Agnes, etc. is that there really wasn't a stand-out star at Nationals this year....except Davis and White. In all the other disciplines there are issues. Ashley reverted to her old self with falls, people are worried about Gracie's mental state and consistency, Agnes is an also-ran at best, some don't think Gao has the fortitude, etc. Jeremy blew it! Aaron has jumps and not much else. Miner is vanilla. Our pairs team is young and is going to get eaten up at Worlds. So I guess there isn't really anyone - other than Davis and White - to really depend on to medal at Worlds. I guess it's better to be in this situation this year than next year. All I'm hoping for is that our top National medalists pull it together and put down 2 great skates at Worlds and hopefully get some top 10 finishes.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icey View Post
    Sasha did compete under the new system. Admittedly there have been some changes to the system, but she would have adapted. She fell twice at the Olympics and still pulled off winning a silver medal. Sasha was one of those skaters who personally poured over the rule books to maximize her points rather than leaving that task completely up to her coach and choreographer. Some recent skaters would do well to follow her lead with regard to that.
    The only thing that would hurt Sasha under the current IJS would be edge calls on her "lutz." She never took off from the outside edge. With skaters not even doing the lutz, I don't think this would hurt her much. I think she would do about the same as before--always in the medal hunt but not always on the podium (and rarely at the top).

  3. #198
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    The time has come for me to clarify: I did not intend on stating that people wanted Cohen HERSELF back...the comment was made that it was hoped that Gold would not turn into another Cohen, and my response was that I don't think it would be a bad thing if she became another Cohen because that would mean we'd have another medal contender again, even if she made mistakes. As it stands now, we can't even get on the podium when (close to) clean...

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    The time has come for me to clarify: I did not intend on stating that people wanted Cohen HERSELF back...the comment was made that it was hoped that Gold would not turn into another Cohen, and my response was that I don't think it would be a bad thing if she became another Cohen because that would mean we'd have another medal contender again, even if she made mistakes. As it stands now, we can't even get on the podium when (close to) clean...
    If Gracie keeps up the technical content, she could make small mistakes and still score well, I think. As long as she doesn't have that defeated, dead eyes look before she even begins a program (Sasha had that frequently too, and you just knew she would falter). Besides lacking in artistic, what I think Gracie needs is the fight. Viewers and judges (I think) appreciate a skater who fights to the bitter end, even with mistakes. Wagner had a few skates early this season where her jumps were not great, but she fought really hard to land them. I'm not going to say anything about Wagner's chances and consistency and blah blah, but I personally appreciate her strong will.

  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Her edge jumps were good and her skating skills weren't that weak. Her edge quality was a bit weak, but her capability for footwork was great. Amazing spins too, so her tech mark would be fine.

    She would have a big advantage in PCS because her ability to perform and execute choreography was phenomenal. Cohen was actually a very good CoP skater. She got hammered for making 1 mistake in the 6.0 system. CoP cares less about mistakes.
    Her edge jumps, at best, would get +1 GOE. Her loop and Sal were tiny, covered little distance. I don't know if her 2A was any good either.
    Her flutz would get -2 GOE at least, because there's no other redeeming quality about that jump.
    Her flip probably would get 0 GOE.
    Her solo 3T might be her only decent jump, and it doesn't earn any real points.

    As for footwork, she is no Carolina Kostner, wouldn't get level 4 and massive GOE. She would just get level 3 like most other second tier girls.

    P/E, CH, spins are her strength, but I don't think it's enough. In the SP, I doubt she can crack 62 in the current system, which means she would be out of the top 6 going into the LP.

    She fell twice at the Olympics and still pulled off winning a silver medal.
    Because everyone else sucked even worse. She would be 10th or so in the 2010 Olympics.

    Even Sasha at her peak would be struggling to make top 6 this year. I think she's about the same as Ashley, and we already have an Ashley, no need for a Sasha. If someone wants to die to bring back Sasha, go ahead, but it won't help the skating dynamic in the US at all.

  6. #201
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    We don't really have do guess what Sasha "might have got." We can see what she did get. For instance, at her her silver medal performance at 2005 Worlds (beating Kwan and Kostner, and with no actual falls) she got

    Jump GOEs: -0.14, 0.71, 0.86, -1.00, -1.71, 0.43, 0.00 (multiply by .7 for equivalent scores now)

    Levels: spins, two level 2's, one level 3; steps, one level 2, one level 3

    PCS: all high 7's.

  7. #202
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    A better measure might be 2010 Nationals, even accounting for generous US judges, because the rules were closer to what they are now.

    SP score was 69.63. 6.11 of that was for the spiral sequence, which no longer exists as a SP element, and which was a strong advantage for Cohen.

    Subtract that and her score would be 63.52.

    PCS: 7.14-7.96

    But the question is are we talking about Cohen at her peak (2004-2006?) skills? Cohen at her 2010 skill level? 2013 skills without having trained seriously for 3 years? Cohen as she might be in 2014 if she started training again?

  8. #203
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    But Cohen is finished now so it does no good to belabor the point. Sorry for bringing her up.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Flatt was doing well the last competition before World.
    Czisny couldn't land a single jump the last competition before World.

    Not the same at all. There's no reason to pull Flatt. There was a good reason to pull Czisny.
    Like I said by Worlds Flatt was clearly injured, and too injured to skate respectably. Are you actually denying this fact. Just because she wasnt too injured at the competition a month before Worlds doesnt mean she was able to skate at Worlds. Anyway at that competition you mentioned she did well she still got beaten badly by the person who would have replaced her on the World team.

    Czisny and Flatt both gave the USFSA a big middle finger by skating at Worlds and acted irresponsability, and karma is paying both ladies back the way they deserved to as their careers are essentialy over both ever since.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Because everyone else sucked even worse. She would be 10th or so in the 2010 Olympics.
    Yes this is true. Anyone who thinks Sasha with her Turin performances would have been anywhere near the Vancouver podium needs to get off the crackpipe. Many would argue the 06 Turin ladies event was the worst in history, even Kwan fans argue she could have won there despite that she was way past her prime and not a COP skater, and before the Games even Kwan fans conceded the best she could hope for was about 5th place. By contrast the 2010 ladies event was probably the strongest in history. In Sashas prime she never won a major title, and she peaked in a weak transition period when Kwan and Slutskaya were old and beat up with injuries, Arakawa was insanely inconsistent, Hughes burnt out and left quickly, Suguri never became a great skater, and the youngsters were either age ineligible or not ready yet. She wouldnt have even been regularly top 3 or 4 in the 07-2010 quad as she was in 2003-2006.

    I also disagree with kwanatic calling her a headcase though. Her inability to skate clean programs and making a few jump mistakes were the result of very poor jump technique. Her technique was too poor to go through programs with 7 clean triples, other than the occasional fluke. I actually think she was quite mentally tough. Skaters with way better jump technique often went through on average making many more mistakes than her with her poor jump technique and poor basic skating (which contributes as well to jump consistency, and ability to hold landing edges with success). She was a real fighter, just not a talented jumper, like she was in many other areas of the sport. She also neglected for whatever reason to improve her jump technique as the years went on.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 02-16-2013 at 12:04 PM.

  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    A better measure might be 2010 Nationals, even accounting for generous US judges, because the rules were closer to what they are now.

    SP score was 69.63. 6.11 of that was for the spiral sequence, which no longer exists as a SP element, and which was a strong advantage for Cohen.

    Subtract that and her score would be 63.52.

    PCS: 7.14-7.96

    But the question is are we talking about Cohen at her peak (2004-2006?) skills? Cohen at her 2010 skill level? 2013 skills without having trained seriously for 3 years? Cohen as she might be in 2014 if she started training again?
    National scores mean nothing. Flatt even scored in the 70 range twice in the SP at Nationals. The Shibutanis often score over 70 in the SD and over 100 in the FD over the years at Nationals. If you want to use Nationals scores as a barometer than subtract atleast 5 points per SP (or SD) and atleast 10 points per LP (or FD) for every single skater.

    Sasha two footed and URed her triple lutz combo at the 2010 Nationals (although neither was called or graded). If she did that performance at the Vancouver Games she would have barely broken 60.
    Last edited by pangtongfan; 02-16-2013 at 12:09 PM.

  12. #207
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    I made lots of posts last night which were erased. :(

    Both sad and humorous to see so much Sasha hate living on in so many jealous skating fans.

    Sasha had plenty of faults, mainly jumping consistency and not trusting coaches / screwing up her training. But she proved herself time and again under CoP. Her PCS blew almost everyone out of the water and her TES was strong even with falls. She was always a serious contender for a medal (usually for a gold medal) and her programs were actually PROGRAMS, even despite the straight jacket of CoP, rather than just a 4 minute sequence of required elements set to music. If she hadn't wasted a critical year of training fooling around with acting, and trusted in coaches & trainers instead of trying to do it herself, she certainly would have been in Vancouver duking it out with Yuna. No way she would have won given Yuna's ridiculous ride, but it would have been a great fight and she'd have had a very good chance of medaling, barring age-related injuries like the ones that doomed Kwan's final Olympic attempt.

    Sasha Cohen - still the last US lady to win an Olympic ladies medal, still the standard by which other US ladies are measured.
    Last edited by James R; 02-19-2013 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #208
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    I think had Sasha competed more leading up to the Olympics she probably would have made the U.S. team and battled for the podium if clean however I think they are looking more for Michelle type consistency. That seems to be the thing they are hoping for more along with a 3/3 and if they happen to have Michelle/Sasha type artistry then it’s a bonus.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post

    Czisny and Flatt both gave the USFSA a big middle finger by skating at Worlds and acted irresponsability, and karma is paying both ladies back the way they deserved to as their careers are essentialy over both ever since.
    Crazy isn't it?

    The scariest thing is that Wagner could potentially be headed down a similar path...*shudder* the 2008ers are all "cursed" it seems

    If you go further back- Nagasu missing the world team being in 3rd the year after blowing it BIG TIME at worlds. Had she landed just that 2A, she would have gone to worlds in 2011, too.

  15. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I think had Sasha competed more leading up to the Olympics she probably would have made the U.S. team and battled for the podium if clean however I think they are looking more for Michelle type consistency. That seems to be the thing they are hoping for more along with a 3/3 and if they happen to have Michelle/Sasha type artistry then it’s a bonus.
    This will anger many, but while Michelle was great, she skated mostly under 6.0 and was somewhat held up in scoring by her own hype and legacy. Not saying she wasn't the most amazing US lady of recent times, but she was definitely handed at least some of those golds. Also, Michelle was probably quite unique in terms of how hard she worked for it. So for both reasons of rarity of the incredible work ethic she put forth, and for the changes in the judging system which forces TE beyond what Michelle could really do, I don't see "Michelle Kwan consistency" happening again... ever. It's just never going to happen.

    Sasha Cohen... that could maybe happen again. Someone that has incredible ability, struggles with some things but can win for us "if she's clean." We haven't really seen it quite yet. Alissa almost got there... a lot of girls were hyped but never reached that level. Sasha started in gymnastics and trained a lot of ballet, so now that I think about it that's pretty unique too.

    It's probably unfair to hold new skaters to either Michelle's consistency or Sasha's ability ... maybe it's best to look at who's winning now and figure out what they're doing and how to replicate it. How DO the Japanese sweep podiums now anyway? Did they really grow so many inherently talented skaters, or is it cultural? Work ethic and talent for math to squeeze all the points they can? Maybe USFSA should focus on having FS mathematicians available to work with the coaches and help our skaters win more points.
    Last edited by James R; 02-19-2013 at 07:11 PM.

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