At the rink. Again.
The downgrades are for the most part not picky for Mirai. You can see her reaching with her landing foot for the ice which is making her toe pick hit too early and is causing her under-rortations and downgrades. It's pretty easy in real time to pick out what's going to get reviewed by the tech panel based on watching her landing and when it's looked at in slow motion, it's going to get hit. It's strange that she reaches for the ice instead of waiting for the ice to reach her as the second one is more or less how Frank C teaches.
Originally Posted by skateluvr
Chan wins with falls and the lady who under rotates most gets fourth because a fall on a fully rotated jump is less destructive to your score than multiple < and << in a program.
As for Gracie's flexibility, she CAN do a fully laid back bauer but CANNOT do a 3Lz out of that due to physics, so it makes sense to just do a bauer without the back bend into the 3Lz as it satisfies the requirement of turns and MIF before the jump out of steps. Her spiral, well, some people just AREN'T flexible in that direction and I believe her to be one of them which doesn't take away from what she CAN do.
Gracie will be fine. First, she is young and still developing so there is time and lessons to learn. Second, she is an American skater so going to Natinoals and competing in your own country is great practice. 3. She is talented and has good people around her - she will be fine sure she may have some off skates but it takes time - Michelle Kwan didnèt win all the time when she started and youth adds some fearlessness.
Rejoicing in the land of Kwan
True...but even at 13 and 14 Michelle paid attention to the music and performed with it rather than through it. She wasn't as refined but you could still see the interpretation and connection she had to her music and choreography. By 17, Michelle was light years ahead of Gracie developmentally.
Originally Posted by Skater Boy
By the time Michelle was 15 years old she was interpreting Salome with the maturity and understanding of someone 5+ years older than her. That's the main area Gracie is lacking IMO; she looks like a junior skater. I'm slightly impatient with her and other skaters who are 16 and 17 years old and still perform like they're 12 and 13 years old. Some of it has to do with the choreography but there's a major lack of maturity where Gracie is concerned. I think she (along with Lipnitskaya) would benefit from taking some classes with Lori...
Michelle spoiled me. Thanks to her, by the time a skater hits 15 I expect them to be able to interpret music, express the choreography, connect with the audience and perform a program. It's not fair to hold anyone to Michelle's standard but that's who I always compare these girls to.
Why are you comparing Gracie to Kwan in the first place? Just about all skaters today pale in comparison to Michelle. Very few skaters have ever skated with the maturity that she did at 15. Besides the skaters today have much more on their plate with COP then Michelle did in the 6.0 days. She might have struggled with COP too for all we know.
Simply the best.
OMG I LOVE YOU for this post! Michelle was extraordinary from the start of her career.
Originally Posted by kwanatic
Rejoicing in the land of Kwan
Like I said, EVERY skater gets compared to Michelle Kwan in my book...this includes Gracie.
Originally Posted by Jammers
I brought Michelle up b/c I was referring to the comment Skater Boy made (if you read what was quoted in the post). My point was prior to Michelle's Salome transformation/subsequent success, she was an all-around performer. She had the interpretation, musicality, connection, etc. at age 13 and 14 that Gracie still lacks at 17 years old. It came naturally for Michelle...Gracie is going to have to work on it.
Of course COP varies tremendously from 6.0 but there are skaters who have proved you can still have an artistically pleasing program within the constraints of COP. I think Gracie needs the right music and choreography to really bring the artist out of her. Her programs this season are juniorish IMO and don't challenge her at all...but that's okay. It's her first year senior and she needs to adjust. Hopefully next season she and her team will branch out and find music or characters that challenge her artistically and we'll see growth from her as a performer.
I think Gold is ok in that regard. It's not fair to compare all skaters to Kwan since she was one of a kind.
If you want to see flat, check out Meissner in 2006...
It's a different era now and so-called "whole package skaters" are being rewarded over " jumping beans".
Well the ladies or girls of today do have bigger tricks including jumps and spins - its COP not 6.0 where a simple spiral is not worth as much as a more difficult spiral.
Originally Posted by kwanatic
Rejoicing in the land of Kwan
Ladies figure skating is in a funny place right now...
I mean, yeah COP is a lot more intricate and requires harder spins, more steps, etc. so the difficulty level is a lot tougher, yet fewer and fewer triple jumps are needed to walk away with a medal! There are parts of COP I like but there are more parts I dislike.
I'm not a fan of the jumping-bean variety of skaters. I think they should earn the points for the jumps but the judges should be stricter when rewarding PCS. The judges do not award the correct PCS the majority of the time; either someone is receiving inflation or someone's getting lowballed...it's very rare that the scores reflect what was actually put on the ice.
I do not find Gracie juniorish, and the judges at CoR did not either. She was in first after the Sp, wasn't she? Hernando's Hideaway was very musical. I think MK was a very smart girl. Everyone said she was a sponge. She was actually at her best from 96-98. Lyra Angelica was when she was in an incredible mental state. She was not the artist Cohen was-not remotely, nor did she skate with her heart on her sleeve like the young Bobek. MK bloomed early, but her jump setups were very long even by the standards then. Irina could do CoP skate and get on the podium. MK was really done and never really skated with the best of CoP skaters. 6 triples yes, but, landing them mattered. She didn't get dinged for imperfect rotations or landings. It is much harder today. MK's era is very over. People forget Arakawa was throwing 3x3x3! in practice at Torino.
We will never know MK's true condition when she left and I think she was scared of being off the podium. 2005/2006 programs were not podium material imo. That said, there is no 6.0 female I have watched and rewatched like MK. For the AGES Lyra!!!! Best all around tech skate and artistry= SOTBS Qualifying Round at Worlds and LP. Tosca was pure guts to show she could do faster, intricate, passionate footwork. She was fighting to stay on top and she was incredible. I have other pro-am favorites. She is the most consistent female skater of the 6.0 era. But we cannot compare her to CoP skaters. They do so much more-or try-it isn't fair. I wish the scoring had never changed when I watch her, because she laid down so many lovely performances. Apples and Oranges, tho.
Last edited by skateluvr; 11-13-2012 at 08:43 PM.
I think Gracie made great strides over the summer to improve on that second mark and on her non-jump elements. Her spins are noticeably better and she is making an effort to perform more to the music.
But I think one thing she has -- and has had -- is good timing to the music. That is different from performing, imo. She has a good ability to keep up with the music and perform the choreographic elements in time and not get too far off from the music. I think that will help her in the long run as she is challenged more artistically in her program.
I was wondering about the Ina Bauer also, but it's smart to go for the lutz. Her jumps are massive and, other than a bit of an awkward arm-swing in the middle of combinations, she is technically flawless.
Originally Posted by mskater93
I don't understand how her SP is "juniorish" at all. You don't see many juniors with a 3F-3T or 3Lz-3T (both of which have been performed in her SP), and her maturity has improved greatly.
To me she is still a bit juniorish, just in the fact she doesn't take her time extending out her movements. She is much better than last year and she will continue to improve. In a way she reminds me of Tara Lipinski, with her youthful but untamed mannerisms.
Originally Posted by ForeverFish
Gracie at 17 is not what the pro tara was at 17. Watch her SOI programs...she was very polished by then. As an Olympic gold medalist tara was amazing-enough of the total package to even blow MK away-well a little bit. Amateur Tara was not as graceful as Gracie for lack of a better word. She doesn't have incredible extensions like Sasha, Mao, etc but she can develop a better spiral. Apparently she has a lovely Ina bauer but can't do it into a lutz (who could-thanks for whoever explained that to me). I recall Sarah looking quite gangly with her long limbs, but Grace at 17 is perfectly proportioned for her height. She is not gangly like Gao was until this year. I find her well coordinated and I cringe at people who are juniorish or gangly. I think we have to realize that maturity is not what skaters are best at. They live in an ice rink.
I think if you put her next to the current Carolina Kostner, or Akiko, or Mao or the top ladies who have been around for years, she has less polish. But I enjoy how she moves much better than any Russian Wonderbaby. Last year I was blown away by Liza and thought her so mature for her age. This year, something is different. Body line is key for the great skaters and I think if Grace gets to Sochi, we will see someone who is a major threat for gold. I agree she does not have the polish of Wagner, and no way does she skate as well as Suzuki. Leonova did not do well with her jumps, but she is using her arms very nicely at 21. Mao is only 22. Kira, who I found awkward, has improved this year at 24. She is stroking better and her arms are better. Gracie has some of that nataural Bobek elegance from her ballet work. I am very happy with what she can do, and her style at 17. I think she is stunning, and if she can keep her body weight down, and does not develop breasts/hips -she looks naturally slender-she will not lose her jumps-unless mental issues happen as they so often do. I am very pleased and hopeful for the US ladies.
I am now this year an Agnes fan-she is good but her body is a bit mannish. Grace is tall for a skater, Akiko had an advantage-all the Japanese are quite small at elite level, and that is an advantage for sure, but she can deliver the hardest combinations. I just hope she does not lose them the way Kostner did. I love tall skaters, male and female because of the lines they can draw as they move through elements. Of course, we never know if an injury is coming, or if people get frightened of their success. I think this is her body for a long time. MK never had weight fluctuations and puberty was not much of a huge change. The petite have it easier, we see this across the board, but I am surprised people are not gushing over Gracie. I really love her Hernando's Hideaway, and only Sasha was more musical and dramatic.
I remember how everyone was down on Mirai for being and acting immature. Now she has filled out but I see a more mature lady out there now. I still have hopes for Mirai. At 19, she is too young and talented to write off, but I think we have two "total packages" right now in the US and I think we should celebrate what is amazing about Gracie. At 20, Wagner became US Champion. She is skating well this year. We need to hope these ladies get our three spots back for Olympics-then argue who should be the 3rd lady. I see both these girls as being capable of being world champions. This is really time to be hopeful and celebrate these two good skaters.
Akiko is so special, but if she does not win the Wc this year, I hope we have Wagner, and Gold on the podium. I am very excited about her and happy for Akiko again this year and at 27, I am torn who to root for. I do not know anything about Grace's coaches and choreographers, BTW, I wonder what LP Lori or David Wilson or Buttle might choose? I am not thrilled with her LP music or the choreography, and I hope she gets the very best out there, though I am not sure who that is?
What do you all think who know more than me? Should Gracie think like Hanyu and make a change to the coach who can transform her into Olympic gold medalist? I can't help but wonder what Lori or David or even Tarasova might do for her LP? It really needs help. Does she have a jump coach? I really know nothing about Ourishev (sp). I am guessing he is Russian. Who else does he train and has she been with him for years?
Any info on her coaches/choreographers much appreciated. I am finally getting on her bandwagon after CoR. Keeping my fingers crosses. And, she will keep our NC on her toes. Nationals will be very intersting with these two ladies, plus Agnes and Mirai and Gao. I have hopes for Wang, too.
Well, we need to think about the GP final. It would be awesome to have two US ladies there. Is that even still possible?
ETA please forgive such a long post...I have not been so excited about a young USA jumper since the young Kimmie.
Last edited by skateluvr; 11-13-2012 at 11:03 PM.