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Thread: Kaetlyn Osmond - Will/should she be given a second Grand Prix ?

  1. #16
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    The answer is NO

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    I do not agree with her scores at this GP and it's not because I'm worried. All in all, I think it's great that Canada has a ladies contender in the mix and we don't have to wait 20 years for it. Chuckm, for example, has been very much a proponent of Osmond on these boards, and he clearly disagrees with the result as well.

    I disagree because I feel Osmond's PCS was high for the packaging she had in that FS. I think I and many other posters explained with great rationality why we feel Suzuki was underscored/Osmond was underscored. I think many posters have taken the time to add thoughtful dialogue to your question in the other thread and not every one of them is responding out of spite, or because they feel she is a threat to their favorite skaters.
    Where did I say or imply "everyone"? I will take time to respond to the other thread in due time once I am actually off my phone - not the easiest to type on an iPhone.

    No matter how nicely put, you cannot speak for everyone. There is no denial there is strong jealousy towards Osmond, hence all these speculations that she won't be invited to another GP event for political reasons. Anyone who tries to deny that is either naive or dishonest.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Where did I say or imply "everyone"? I will take time to respond to the other thread in due time once I am actually off my phone - not the easiest to type on an iPhone.

    No matter how nicely put, you cannot speak for everyone. There is no denial there is strong jealousy towards Osmond, hence all these speculations that she won't be invited to another GP event for political reasons. Anyone who tries to deny that is either naive or dishonest.
    All I'm saying is there are plenty of posters who are NOT that way and I hope that in midst of all this discussion, I hope people will see there is some reasonable discussion.

    And as for those who are jealous... that's something they have to work through.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 10-28-2012 at 01:10 PM.

  4. #19
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    Well, I hate to sound naive and dishonest, but I am not seeing much evidence of "jealousy" in this debate. I think Osmond's PCSs should have been higher in the short program and lower in the long. I thing Suzuki should have got program components in the eights in choreography and interpretation in the LP.

    (OK, I am a little jealous of both of them because they are a lot more talented than I am.)

    As for a second GP assignment, the problem is that all the assignments have already been given out. Can Skate Canada pull some strings to get her added as an extra skater somewhere? I doubt it, but it can't hurt to try.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I think the Nelbohorn Trophy results answered your question already. Historically when a newcomer had a breakthrough performance, his/her score tends to be sustained provided the subsequent competition is at a similar level or better. So long as she continues to deliver and better herself, I have no doubt sky is the limit for her.
    Here's what Kaetlyn scored in the SP at Nebelhorn and at SC (she had the same jump content for both):

    27.35 6.68 6.61 6.96 6.86 7.07 SC
    24.80 6.11 5.96 6.29 6.25 6.39 Nebelhorn

    and the FS (similar jump content with one fall at each)

    59.61 7.32 7.25 7.61 7.46 7.61 SC
    56.36 6.86 6.86 7.14 7.25 7.11 Nebelhorn

    And International Bs are known for their overscoring.

    I think Kaetlyn is a good skater and a promising one. But I do not think that she is at this point anywhere near the level of skating skills as Akiko Suzuki, and her PCS scores should not be on the same level. Akiko had a great FS and her scores should have been at least .5-.75 higher for each component than Kaetlyn's.
    Last edited by chuckm; 10-28-2012 at 01:30 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, I hate to sound naive and dishonest, but I am not seeing much evidence of "jealousy" in this debate. I think Osmond's PCSs should have been higher in the short program and lower in the long. I thing Suzuki should have got program components in the eights in choreography and interpretation in the LP.

    (OK, I am a little jealous of both of them because they are a lot more talented than I am.)

    As for a second GP assignment, the problem is that all the assignments have already been given out. Can Skate Canada pull some strings to get her added as an extra skater somewhere? I doubt it, but it can't hurt to try.
    Thanks Mathman. That's what I'm saying. I guess I'm naive and dishonest too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Where did I say or imply "everyone"? I will take time to respond to the other thread in due time once I am actually off my phone - not the easiest to type on an iPhone.

    No matter how nicely put, you cannot speak for everyone. There is no denial there is strong jealousy towards Osmond, hence all these speculations that she won't be invited to another GP event for political reasons. Anyone who tries to deny that is either naive or dishonest.
    The reason (well, in my point of view) that people are speculating that Osmond will be less likely to receive a second GP assignment if another one opens up due to withdrawal (because as Mathman said, they're all full now) is because this year, the alternate spots have been going to skaters who had been viewed as lesser threats to the host country (well, we've basically only seen TEB withdrawals/selections).

    Mirai Nagasu did have a very subpar season last year, but still is ranked #13 and was somewhere in the top 15 season's best last season. Despite sitting at the top of the alternate list since day one, after several withdrawals (don't know the exact number), still only has one assignment -- and unlike Alissa Czisny, who only requested one GP due to injury, Nagasu has expressed that she would like a second assignment. Instead, TEB gave the spots to Christina Gao (this was before Gao won silver at Skate America, and occurred during the summer when people were unsure about how she would be able to balance Harvard and competitive skating), Jenna McCorkell, and Elena Glebova. They actually could have given a spot to Osmond somewhere in there as well, but didn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Well, I hate to sound naive and dishonest, but I am not seeing much evidence of "jealousy" in this debate. I think Osmond's PCSs should have been higher in the short program and lower in the long. I thing Suzuki should have got program components in the eights in choreography and interpretation in the LP.

    (OK, I am a little jealous of both of them because they are a lot more talented than I am.)

    As for a second GP assignment, the problem is that all the assignments have already been given out. Can Skate Canada pull some strings to get her added as an extra skater somewhere? I doubt it, but it can't hurt to try.
    If Skate Canada tried anything like that, there would be a tremendous outcry. There is nothing in the ISU GP rules that allows for favoritism for one federation. If Skate Canada wants to push Kaetlyn, they can send her to another International B.

    ETA: Maybe they should send Kaetlyn to the NRW singles competition (Dec 5-9), so she can test her mettle against Yu-Na Kim who will be skating there. It's the same weekend as the GPF.
    Last edited by chuckm; 10-28-2012 at 01:42 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    If Skate Canada tried anything like that, there would be a tremendous outcry. There is nothing in the ISU GP rules that allows for favoritism for one federation. .
    Oh, gosh. Now I think you are the one being naive. Federation bigwigs talk to each other all the time, right? Just like coaches push their skaters. "Have I got a girl for you!"

    I bet all kinds of deals are made, you take my lady, I'll take your pair next year. Otherwise, they would just go down the list of world rankings or something like that.

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    Mathman, you suggested adding an additional lady (#11) to a GP event. That can't be done via federation-federation dealmaking because it is a direct violation of ISU rules.

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    Obviously, it doesn't matter what anyone has to say about Osmond, good, bad, or indifferent, wallylutz, as your mind is clearly made up. Even if the only comments anyone ever had to say about Osmond, infinitely praised her to the heavens, it apparently wouldn't be enough for you.

    The vast majority of comments re Kaetlyn Osmond that I have read on this board and elsewhere have been praiseworthy and respectful. Just because a number of fans (even many fans of Kaetlyn) felt Suzuki performed better in the fp and should have won overall at SC, does not mean that they are "jealous" of Kaetlyn's success. Kaetlyn deserves the attention and she's worked hard for the success she is achieving and will continue to achieve. She performed well in her debut performance on the senior GP, and ended up winning gold. The result was not set in stone, was it? Why not be happy and stop over-reacting to fans' disagreements with the judging? Fans will always have some disagreements. It is the initial level of disagreement (in real time and after the event) with the SC fp results that is noticeable. However, it's a done deal that Osmond has won SC gold, and no one is planning a riot to protest. Now, you want to rush Osmond into another GP, where in fact, there is no guarantee she will skate as well, and even if she did that a different set of judges will place her above skaters who perform as well or better. Plus, there is no realistic opportunity for her to be assigned to another GP at this point. Let her breathe and develop at her own pace.

    I enjoyed watching Kaetlyn in both of her programs at SC, and I felt her second place in the sp was well-earned, and I said so in my sp comments. I was happy for her when I saw she won the event too. But once I looked at the performances, I didn't feel Kaetlyn's fp choice of music was that great for her, but she did a good job with her elements and performed extremely well in coming back from a couple of mistakes. I think Suzuki had problems in her sp (but I don't think that necessarily warranted her being in 5th place in the sp -- Suzuki I think warranted either 4th or 5th in sp, and 1st in fp by a higher margin). I think Kanako performed beautifully in both sp and fp and that she arguably should have placed third in the sp and second or third in the fp, with Kaetlyn second in the sp and second or third in the fp. Many will disagree on placements, but the majority of fans (and not just Suzuki fans) felt Suzuki should have won gold for her difficult and more artistically mature performance in the fp.

    Obviously, if Elene G had skated lights out in the fp, she would have won the event. Would you have been irate with Kaetlyn coming in second in that instance.

    Kaetlyn is blossoming well, and I am most impressed by her confidence, spark and athleticism. She obviously has the potential to compete for the podium at every event she enters. Why not allow her to achieve prominence on her own merits and stop all the over-adulation, overly high expectations and smothering? That kind of fanaticism has never helped Patrick Chan and it won't be beneficial for Kaetlyn either.
    Last edited by Art&Sport; 10-28-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Well, you realize she also beat Sotnikova already, right? Ice is always slippery and none of the ladies you mentioned have consistently scored above 170 so never say never.

    I realize her ascension has pissed many people even though few will admit so. That said, all these negativity only serves to prove some people are worried because they know the kind of damage she can do and she hasn't even skated a clean LP yet. Just imagine the potential there must be very unsettling to the numerous fans of Russian and Japanese divas who didn't see this coming and who have previously assumed 2014 Sochi is theirs already... To those concerned, too bad for you, a new challenger is coming and she means business.
    You must have misunderstood me. At no point did I ever express that I am "pissed" at Osmond for her performance at Skate Canada. If anything, a new and talented young skater only makes the field more exciting to watch--for example, though the Russians and Americans are fierce contenders for every single crown, I cheer on Gracie Gold and Ashley Wagner as much as Julia L, Liza T, and Adelina S. Even if I don't agree with Osmond's marks at SC, I'm still excited to see what she can do. She's definitely one of Canada's best bets for Sochi, but at this point, one or two good performances mean very little against repeat national champions of Japan and Russia, who are undoubtedly the strongest countries in the sport.

    Sotnikova definitely lacks consistency, but technique and artistry-wise, she's in an entirely different class. And I don't think it's fair to refer to the established Japanese and Russian girls as divas in order to champion Osmond's cause. They all began where she is now--a talented teenage skater--and deserve as much glory as she. No one is assuming anything about Sochi past cautious hopes because, as we all know, injuries and other barriers can pop up between now and then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    There aren't any open ladies' spaces at this point. If Alissa Czisny withdraws from NHK, I doubt the JFSF will give the spot to Osmond. Nagasu is the obvious replacement---she is the daughter of Japanese parents, and is unlikely to pose a challenge to Asada, Imai and Suzuki. Mirai has been at the top of the replacement list from the beginning of the season and should get the nod.

    In any case, I wonder if Osmond would receive the sky-high PCS scores she got at SC outside Canada?
    Interesting question. I think they'd still be high enough to be questioned by people, but not higher than Suzuki's.

    Anyway, if a skater were to withdraw from TEB or CoR, I can see Osmond getting the slot. Not NHK though. It will be interesting to see if there are any WDs - we've already had an obscene attrition rate, though in fairness that was just as much due to the ISU rules than anything else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Interesting question. I think they'd still be high enough to be questioned by people, but not higher than Suzuki's.

    Anyway, if a skater were to withdraw from TEB or CoR, I can see Osmond getting the slot. Not NHK though. It will be interesting to see if there are any WDs - we've already had an obscene attrition rate, though in fairness that was just as much due to the ISU rules than anything else.
    TEB perhaps, but she wouldn't stand much of a chance against Wagner, Lipnitskaia, and Tuktamysheva. I highly doubt that the Russians would give her an open slot at the Rostelecom Cup though, especially if they think she poses a threat to Sotnikova or Leonova, both of whom are known to have consistency issues.

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    Right, but if you believe in trades, Polina Shelepen and Popova/Massot got spots at Skate Canada that they could've filled with anyone (they were host slots initially).

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