Was SLC a myth? It's very hard to catch bad behavior but that was one instance where undeniable evidence surfaced. To say that federations can influence results isn't saying every competition is rigged. If politicking wasn't effective no one would do it. Why do you think a US judge slammed Plushenko's skating before Turin? Do you think he would have slammed Evan if he skated like Evgeny?Originally Posted by Dragonlady
^Before Torino Plush was fine, maybe you mean Vancouver
Yes, I meant Vancouver^Before Torino Plush was fine, maybe you mean Vancouver
SLC was more than 10 years ago under a different judging system, which was easy to manipulate if you had the numbers.
This system is not easy to game, even if you did happen to know which judges scores were being used. It is ridiculous to assume that one federation can manipulate results, especially under this judging system.
How would the anyone know that Osmond might skate well enough to be declared the winner, and that Suzuki would bomb her SP? Manipulation of the results only works when the skaters perform to a level which makes the results reasonable. How would SC know long enough in advance of the event to maniuplate the judges assigned?
Last edited by Dragonlady; 11-01-2012 at 07:44 PM.
PCS scores are just as easy (or hard) to manipulate as pre COP scores; however, that's not saying that there was anything wrong going on here.
My personal opinion was that the bump in Osmond's PCS scores from the SP to the LP was just "home cooking". The judges are human and of course they might think a program was skated better if there is an enthusiastic response from the audience.
A little OT, but does SC invite and pay for travel for the judges as well? If so, that could be a little extra motivation to bump a home skater if the judge wants to be invited in the future.
Sorry, but that sounds too simplified and naive. Influencing the judges or the results can happen via many different forms of politicking. And powerful federations can do that, by negotiating (explicitly or implicitly) official posts, assignment of judges and technical callers, assignment of athletes, and rule changes.
Excuse me for bringing up an old case and specific skaters. The technical caller who first gave Yu-Na an edge attention call (when FS commentators were saying hers was a perfect flip) was the same one who dinged her with a UR call (the only time it happened to her 3-3s) at 2009 GPFs in Japan, just prior to the Olys. And as somebody pointed out here, the ISU council made the rule changes after the Olys, limiting the number of 2As and raising the value of 3As. The consequence? We no longer see her huge 3f-3t or 2a-3t, point-scoring being secondary. Terrific.
More recent case: I have no problem with Kaetlyn declared a winner at that particular event (she's a fine athlete and I like her skating and her confidence). She did have the SP lead and it could have gone either way. Still, granting her some 9s were just absurd or, to say the least, inconsistent by any standard, absolute or relative, or with the so-called "corridor" practice.
Those things have happened and will continue to happen. But if the fans don't raise concerns and take it like "that's the way it is", then who would? Cinquanta? Dore?
Exactly! If the skating world is known to be this dirtily manipulated, why bother competing? If the skating fans know this much how the federations, particularly Skate Canada, are politicking, why bother watching?
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-01-2012 at 08:54 PM.
That too sounds simplified and irresponsible.
Politicking and out-right rigging/manipulation is not one in the same. To me, manipulation/rigging = the result is set before the competition is set to begin. Politicking is influencing TPTB in a way that may influence their final result though it is highly dependent on how the skaters actually do., i.e. it doesn't really work if the skater that is being politicked has a disaster of a program or that skater's competitors skate in such a way that giving them the win is the obvious choice.
And for heaven's sake, judges, coaches and skaters have talked about politicking in the past, so I don't know why we as fans should believe it doesn't exist.
As to why we bother watching? The fact is that through it all, despite bad judging, questionable scores, whatever, the skating is still fun to watch! I find it pretty easy to still enjoy both Akiko's and Kaetlyn's programs (namely Akiko's FS and Kaetlyn's SP) despite all the discussion.
Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-02-2012 at 12:06 AM. Reason: Accurate original quote.
Canada didn't fail. Scott hamilton won according to experts and there were figures then. Orser i think was the best free skater of his comp. years. Also, the USA was def more powerful a fed than Canada in the 80's. Our skaters had an advantage we no longer have. The battle of the Brians was so close. I do not know what was what, can't recall. I think Orser won the free skate. Can't recall. He made an error in his long I think, and boitano was perfect. It was so close. But again I think the USA was def more powerful in the 80's but not now.
Yuna had the basics, but she was clearly helped greatly in every way from the Canadian team based at cricket club. Without ALL they did for her and taught her, it easily would have been Mao as OGM. Yuna understands her first coaches could not take her from a girl who was Korean National Champion (where is korea? lol) and GPF champ to the next level. I understand she learned good technique as a young girl, but her Canadian team transformed her. To ask why Joannie did not win is rather Duh. Her mistakes were many. She might have been totally aweome (as opposed to just awesome) had her mother not [unexpectedly passed away]. I love her skating, and would rather watch Joannie do a gala than Yuna. After her mother died, Joannie skated with her heart and warmth. Yuna is a cool, cold skater. One does not feel her programs. At least many say so and I get the point. How could joannie win over a clean Yuna with her jumps done perfectly or a three triple axel mao who also skated very well.
No federation could cheat like that in an Olympics where every score is heavily scrutinized. That is the major reason why we have CoP. Fair judging. Vancouver was indeed fair.
Last edited by Mathman; 11-02-2012 at 11:02 AM.
Raise what concerns? Has Osmond skated that bad?! Was there any this level of concerns and outrage when Jeremy Abbott got the second highest PCS but the eighth place finish in LP at SA less than two weeks ago? Was there any this level of concerns and outrage when Daisuke Takahashi got then world record SP score and such high total scores at WTT which he himself also thought they were way generous scores and brushed them off with smile? Was there any this level of concerns and outrage for the home-cooking points in Evan Lysacek's 2009 LA Worlds gold?
Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-01-2012 at 10:23 PM.
Dragonlady, what are you smoking, lol? Be nice. I did not perpetrate any myth, no one is saying what you said. I wondered about how political power works now in the sport, wh weilds the most. It's an inside question, and we have insiders here. I am purporting nothing like what you said, but you are known for having a lot of attack as we say. Please don't start trouble in an otherwise civil thread.
I'm sorry, so far all we read were speculations from fans, no insiders in this thread.
Plushenko's reinstatement followed all the rules and I think his exception to the point minimum from ISU rule for euros was all because he is Plushenko not that he was from Russia.
The answer is totally Canada.
Canada whining changed the scoring system. Well Canada and US but US got behind Canada!
The whole thing is there is subjectivity involved and that can be influenced by politics. Obviously Vancouver had tons of politics against Russian skaters by Canadians and Americans. Russia did not effectively respond!
Brining up the fact that the ISU had Plushenko in a bad judging/skater video was already too late. How was he even is the bad skater video when he was talking of coming back for years just had not pulled the trigger. He was talking about it and the ISU still had Plushenko in the bad judging/skater video.
The model of bad judging was all about a compeition where a Russian won Gold!!
Last edited by gmyers; 11-01-2012 at 09:51 PM.
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