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Thread: Most powerful federation?

  1. #76
    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    Well, over the years it does seem the host country is helped in some discipline, as a thank you. It appears to be how it is done. Be nice to Canadian skaters when they host the GPF, and be nice to the Russians when they host. As long as I can remember, some discipline would raise my eyes a bit as to a result. Usually it is the bronze medal. If 3 and 4 are close, give the medal to the host country. In a judged sport there is indeed room for gifting. No insiders have spoken up, but when people post as themselves and have a role in skating, they must be careful what they divulge on skating boards. I do think Canada is very strong and nationalistic in a way that Russia is as well.

    SC saw a chance to reward great skating from a brand new lady who was wonderful. I prsonally think Akiko is one of the best, most musical skaters I have seen. She is a joy to watch, and at 27, she is amazing. Likely Akiko would win in japan, with kate second. This appears how the GPF works. World scores and Olympic scores are affected by reputation and status. Why is it the WC so often wins the Olympics? Not always, but often. So At the Worlds and Olympics, here is a lot going on, and more scrutiny goes into the judging. After SLC no judge wants to face hatred from the world for hime cooking. But it does seem home cooking is more tolerated on GPF. It is a beautiful sport to watch.

    Poor Nancy wuzrobbed in 94 and we could debate if and why, but if we get angry at the times when the wrong person won, we'd walk away. As Mrs P. says, the sport is beautiful and interesting. I am not so interested in the vagaries of the CoP. I want to be moved, or delighted, or just enjoy. Suzuki and Osmond skated with joy. It was wonderful really. They make you forget who came in third, really. Canada did indeed do very well at SC. Maybe a tiny bit corrupt, or is that a way too strong word. "Home cooking" seems to be more descriptive. The results were within the mean of acceptable to most everyone. We no longer see the stuff that made people scream when the bloc judging was in full force in ice dance.

    I think it is impossible to rig, unless you pay off the top team to skate bad. V/M usually win. If they threw away a medal -well then we'd have a SLC sized scandal. But this is not prize fighting, lol. If there were big money/ig endorsements left in NA or in Europe, people might care more about cheating some how. I think it looks fairly clean. I have no idea if the Asian fans feel the sport is judged fairly. Since we have Japan as the superpower of mens and ladies skating, winning so many medals, I don't think they'd complain or say the judging is unfair, unless it's the chanflation episodes which seem past us now.

    I wonder how China feels it's skaters are regarded and scored at big events and if it is fair? But unfortunately, we don't have many members from mainland china (or do we?) to weigh in. This emerging superpower is emerging in so many areas of life, even FS. What does the future hold for their skaters? When will we see another Lu Chen?? China has everything it needs it seems to have their skaters on the podiums -in every discipline. It is interesting to see how maybe bigsis sees his counrty's fed and how the chinese skaters placements are being affected by their place in FS. I wish we had some insiders telling us how it works. Inqquiring mind (mine) is curious indeed.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    Canada didn't fail. Scott hamilton won according to experts and there were figures then. Orser i think was the best free skater of his comp. years. Also, the USA was def more powerful a fed than Canada in the 80's. Our skaters had an advantage we no longer have. The battle of the Brians was so close. I do not know what was what, can't recall. I think Orser won the free skate. Can't recall. He made an error in his long I think, and boitano was perfect. It was so close. But again I think the USA was def more powerful in the 80's but not now.

    Yuna had the basics, but she was clearly helped greatly in every way from the Canadian team based at cricket club. Without ALL they did for her and taught her, it easily would have been Mao as OGM. Yuna understands her first coaches could not take her from a girl who was Korean National Champion (where is korea? lol) and GPF champ to the next level. I understand she learned good technique as a young girl, but her Canadian team transformed her. To ask why Joannie did not win is rather Duh. Her mistakes were many. She might have been totally aweome (as opposed to just awesome) had her mother not dropped dead. I love her skating, and would rather watch Joannie do a gala than Yuna. After her mother died, Joannie skated with her heart and warmth. Yuna is a cool, cold skater. One does not feel her programs. At least many say so and I get the point. How could joannie win over a clean Yuna with her jumps done perfectly or a three triple axel mao who also skated very well.

    No federation could cheat like that in an Olympics where every score is heavily scrutinized. That is the major reason why we have CoP. Fair judging. Vancouver was indeed fair.
    Nobody denies YuNa learned a lot in Ceicket. But, What did Canada do as a nation for her win? Did Skate Canada back her at Olympics instead of Joanni? Absolutely not. As you said, Vancouver was fair and YuNa won fair. Why did you say Canada made her Olympic Chanpion?

    I understand you do not feel her programs just as I do not feel programs of Mao and Joanni. That is what we call diversity. I think you don't seem to understand it. You like her or not, YuNa is one of the most popular skater in the world.
    Last edited by cosmos; 11-01-2012 at 09:08 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    PCS scores are just as easy (or hard) to manipulate as pre COP scores; however, that's not saying that there was anything wrong going on here.
    To whose benefit? You would have to have a majority of the judges selected to be scored in your pocket, and they would have to know how much the non-winning skater would be scored to counter. It's not like 6.0 where only the placements matter. Manipulating PCS scores would ONLY work if you know for sure your scores will be used, and by how much you need to counter the other skaters' scores. This is where ordinals are easier to manipulate because they provide a fixed value to work with. An additive system like CoP isn't as easy to game as an ordinal system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmos View Post
    Nobody denies YuNa learned a lot in Ceicket. But, What did Canada do as a nation for her win? Did Skate Canada back her at Olympics instead of Joanni? Absolutely not. As you said, Vancouver was fair and YuNa won fair. Why did you say Canada made her Olympic Chanpion?
    I think the point was that Orser gave her all the tools she needed. Her technical proficiency and ability to handle unimaginable pressure from your country were perfected in Canada. I'm sure Orser politicked for Yuna too. I don't think it was realistic to expect her to skate that well in Vancouver, as favorites often struggle to produce their best at the Olys, so any politicking was unnecessary in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Manipulating PCS scores would ONLY work if you know for sure your scores will be used, and by how much you need to counter the other skaters' scores.
    Sure, but a lot of times the manipulated scores will count, so there's no reason for a judge not to try if that's what they want to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Raise what concerns? Has Osmond skated that bad?! Was there any this level of concerns and outrage when Jeremy Abbott got the second highest PCS but the eighth place finish in LP at SA less than two weeks ago?
    I think the outrage comes from the fact some people don't like the RESULT. Someone who thought Akiko should win wouldn't care if she won by 1 or 10 points. To me the outlier judge raised eyebrows. On interpretation this judge gave Osmond a 9.25. 8 of the 9 judges in Vancouver gave YuNa interpretation marks 9.25 or below.

    Osmond's CH from this judge: 8.75 YuNa's avg: 8.95
    Osmond's PE from the judge: 9.00 Yuna's Avg: 9.15

    You don't find it ridiculous to put Osmond's program on par with that great skate? How does that not look fishy?
    Last edited by drivingmissdaisy; 11-01-2012 at 09:42 PM.

  7. #82
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    I like and enjoy Yuna, esp the person she is. But I am not Korean so have no nationalistic feeling for her, but then I don't feel Ashley is the best in the world just because she is American.

    I smile at the diversity thing as you don't know me, and diversity is all around me. I feel Yuna does not yet do programs where she shows her emotions much. Perhaps she is very introverted? She does not reach out to audience in her competitive programs. The joy you see from say a Michelle Kwan or a Katelyn Osmond or Suzuki is just not Yuna's style. If she continues skating, maybe we will see this. YuNa may be a warm person if you are a family member or her inner circle Please don't misunderstand me. Bond was sexy and cool-perfect vehicle for her persona. Gershwin helped lighten her up as opposed to heavy classical music. The people that chose her music, costumes, and choreographed her every move were genius at CoP and performance.

    It will be interesting to see if the "new" Yuna who returns is the same girl or one who skates more from the heart-so much so that we can see it. Maybe one has to be Korean to feel her program where she did homage to Korea? Is that possible Cosmos? But what is it about Michelle to use the most famous example, that touched people in every culture- Asians/non Asians. I think it was the joy and the way she showed us her heart. She was consistent in jumping, yes, won almost everything, but it was a real warmth and a desire to touch the audience that fueled her popularity. Yuna Kim is beautiful like Michelle. More beautiful. I thought her Vancouver skates great and athletic and polished. But they did not move me.

    In 94, no one cared about Katarina Witt at the Olympics. Watch her LP. It was not full of smiles, nor great jumps, but one can feel her emotions about Sarajevo, a city she was the toast of in her career, and seeing it bombed to bits in the wars in Yugoslavia. I know all Korea loves Yuna like she was their daughter. As she matures, maybe I will find her skating more touching. She has had a sheltered life, yes? Mostly sucess and winning. We have a saying, there is more room in a broken heart.

    At SC Elene G skated to the very haunting, moving soundtrack from the film Schindler's List. She touched me. Paul Wylie, a great American artistic skater used this too. The music alone is terribly moving, as it evokes the true tragedy of the holocaust. But many skaters would never skate to such music, as they do not find it in their heart to feel such angst filled music. Watch Wylie's performance as a pro on youtube and then tell me if you understand what I am saying to you.

    Yuna is a skater to marvel at and admire in many ways. But there is this cool thing there-like Arakawa used to be-that did not touch me. Arakawa has lived some more and skates to Yugao which I know nothing about. But clearly this music makes her feel something and it is evident to me she is very much moved by it. I can feel it even though I know nothing right now about this music. She seems an artist now, primarily, not an athlete.

    I certainly am open to and very excited about what offerings Yuna will bring as she skates to Sochi. I just hope her heart is truly into it.
    Last edited by skateluvr; 11-01-2012 at 09:45 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    It is interesting to see how maybe bigsis sees his counrty's fed and how the chinese skaters placements are being affected by their place in FS.
    "bigsis" is an American who works in China.

    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I think the outrage comes from the fact some people don't like the RESULT. Someone who thought Akiko should win wouldn't care if she won by 1 or 10 points. To me the outlier judge raised eyebrows. On interpretation this judge gave Osmond a 9.25. 8 of the 9 judges in Vancouver gave YuNa interpretation marks 9.25 or below.

    Osmond's CH from this judge: 8.75 YuNa's avg: 8.95
    Osmond's PE from the judge: 9.00 Yuna's Avg: 9.15

    You don't find it ridiculous to put Osmond's program on par with that great skate? How does that not look fishy?
    Was YuNa in this competition? If she were, then you have a point.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-01-2012 at 09:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Was YuNa in this competition? If she were, then you have a point.
    No. And a side-by-side comparison of the programs would probably show a toss up between which one was the best ever skated under COP. I mean if you refuse to acknowledge that the one judge's marks are inappropriate for that skate then you can't discuss this reasonably.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I wish we had some insiders telling us how it works.
    Don't worry, you'll hear plenty from Johnny Weir later when he loses competitions.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Don't worry, you'll hear plenty from Johnny Weir later when he loses competitions.

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    Custom Title skateluvr's Avatar
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    One question.

    How does an organization set up rules and regulations when the organization is made up of entities with competing interests and viewpoints?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    No. And a side-by-side comparison of the programs would probably show a toss up between which one was the best ever skated under COP. I mean if you refuse to acknowledge that the one judge's marks are inappropriate for that skate then you can't discuss this reasonably.
    I wasn't talking about a specific judge's marks. It really is over-the-top reactions on this board by SC ladies' result. Look how many threads were talking about the same thing with different titles? This one is particularly and clearly aiming at skating federations, mainly aiming at Skate Canada, which, as expected, has attracted many Canada haters.

    If you want to go specific, let's compare Hanyu's "world record" SP with Takahashi's 2012 WTT SP and Chan's 2011 Worlds' SP. There were plenty to be outraged. But nobody did.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-01-2012 at 10:21 PM.

  15. #90
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    One question.

    How does an organization set up rules and regulations when the organization is made up of entities with competing interests and viewpoints?
    Shall we consult the United Nations charter?

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