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Thread: Most powerful federation?

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I wasn't talking about a specific judge's marks. It really is over-the-top reactions on this board by SC ladies' result. Look how many threads were talking about the same thing with different titles? This one is particularly and clearly aiming at skating federations, mainly aiming at Skate Canada, which, as expected, has attracted many Canada haters.
    Well some of us are trying to have a serious discussion and it doesn't really advance the discussion if you're going to sit here and call people "haters" who disagree with your point of view. I was talking about a specific judge's marks, then you seemed to argue that 9's were appropriate because marks shouldn't have any correlation from competition to competition. I disagreed with the SC result but am only outraged by the one judge's marks. And I disagreed with Hanyu's scores for the SP and said Chan is far superior so please don't sit here and call me a Canada hater.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    No. And a side-by-side comparison of the programs would probably show a toss up between which one was the best ever skated under COP. I mean if you refuse to acknowledge that the one judge's marks are inappropriate for that skate then you can't discuss this reasonably.
    No, sorry, that's ridiculous. A side by side comparison only works when the same rules are being applied. PCS rules have changed from Vancouver to now. Additionally, we know that it's only now that the judges have been encouraged to use the higher echelons of PCS.

    It doesn't mean Osmond wasn't overscored or that that judges' marks are reasonable

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Well some of us are trying to have a serious discussion and it doesn't really advance the discussion if you're going to sit here and call people "haters" who disagree with your point of view. I was talking about a specific judge's marks, then you seemed to argue that 9's were appropriate because marks shouldn't have any correlation from competition to competition. I disagreed with the SC result but am only outraged by the one judge's marks. And I disagreed with Hanyu's scores for the SP and said Chan is far superior so please don't sit here and call me a Canada hater.
    Did I say you are a Canada hater? Did I say in any time or even in any threads that 9's were appropriate? I've said a few times that there were no doubt home town advantages. And I acknowledged that Osmond has gotten it. BUT this time was no difference than any other times in any other countries. Why would Canada be different and would cause this level of concerns and outrages, and suddenly politickings fly everywhere?

    Osmond skated well. She fell once in LP. She got 5 points less than Suzuki. Her total score made her a champion because Suzuki skated badly in SP. That's the main point. Osmond had some advantage. But it was in a tolerable range. There is no reason to be outraged like this.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-01-2012 at 11:11 PM.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Osmond skated well. She fell once in LP. She got 5 points less than Suzuki. Her total score made her a champion because Suzuki skated badly in SP.
    I think we all agree with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Osmond had some advantage. But it was in a tolerable range. There is no reason to be outraged like this.
    This is where there is disagreement, that Akiko was only 5 points better than Osmond, and just a hair better than her on PCS. If I try to be objective I cannot think of a single PCS criterium in which Osmand was equal to Akiko, particularly when you had a clean skate from an arguably superior skater. You may not be outraged, and I'm not particularly outraged, but if I was more of an Akiko fan I probably would be.

  5. #95
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    This is where there is disagreement, that Akiko was only 5 points better than Osmond, and just a hair better than her on PCS. If I try to be objective I cannot think of a single PCS criterium in which Osmand was equal to Akiko, particularly when you had a clean skate from an arguably superior skater. You may not be outraged, and I'm not particularly outraged, but if I was more of an Akiko fan I probably would be.
    Exactly where I stand as well. That said, I do think the Akiko vs Osmond debate at this point should end because I feel we're beating a dead horse at this point. Cup of China starts in a few hours!

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Well some of us are trying to have a serious discussion and it doesn't really advance the discussion if you're going to sit here and call people "haters" who disagree with your point of view. I was talking about a specific judge's marks, then you seemed to argue that 9's were appropriate because marks shouldn't have any correlation from competition to competition. I disagreed with the SC result but am only outraged by the one judge's marks. And I disagreed with Hanyu's scores for the SP and said Chan is far superior so please don't sit here and call me a Canada hater.
    Any discussion of manipulations by the federations of results under CoP displays gross ignorance of how the results were manipulated under 6.0. In part, it had to do with the number of Russian judges on the panel after the break-up of the former Soviet Union. With all of the Soviet federations being allowed one judge each on the panels, it was not uncommon at the big competitions to have 5 or more of the 9 judges aligned with the Eastern Block, thus allowing panels to manipulate the results when the situation allowed. It is critical to note that the skating has to justify the result for block judging to work.

    Results cannot be manipulated in the same manner under CoP, in part because it is an agreggate scoring situation and not an ordinal placement. In order to win, you don't need a majority of judges placing you first, you need total marks placing you first which is pretty impossible to manipulate without knowing in advance how much higher judges who are not for the designated winner are going to score the competition.

    In the case of the women's results at Skate Canada, Osmond didn't win the LP, Suzuki did. But Aikiko's SP was much lower marked that Osmond's and Suzuki's LP mark was not enough to overcome her problems in the SP.

    Reading these posts, I get the distinct impression that most of the people here have no idea what block judging was or how it worked. Folks are big at making accusations with little to no knowledge of how you would go about doing it.

    It's insulting to the skaters, the sport and the honesty of MOST of the officials to post these kinds of baseless accusations.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateluvr View Post
    I like and enjoy Yuna, esp the person she is. But I am not Korean so have no nationalistic feeling for her, but then I don't feel Ashley is the best in the world just because she is American.

    I smile at the diversity thing as you don't know me, and diversity is all around me. I feel Yuna does not yet do programs where she shows her emotions much. Perhaps she is very introverted? She does not reach out to audience in her competitive programs. The joy you see from say a Michelle Kwan or a Katelyn Osmond or Suzuki is just not Yuna's style. If she continues skating, maybe we will see this. YuNa may be a warm person if you are a family member or her inner circle Please don't misunderstand me. Bond was sexy and cool-perfect vehicle for her persona. Gershwin helped lighten her up as opposed to heavy classical music. The people that chose her music, costumes, and choreographed her every move were genius at CoP and performance.

    It will be interesting to see if the "new" Yuna who returns is the same girl or one who skates more from the heart-so much so that we can see it. Maybe one has to be Korean to feel her program where she did homage to Korea? Is that possible Cosmos? But what is it about Michelle to use the most famous example, that touched people in every culture- Asians/non Asians. I think it was the joy and the way she showed us her heart. She was consistent in jumping, yes, won almost everything, but it was a real warmth and a desire to touch the audience that fueled her popularity. Yuna Kim is beautiful like Michelle. More beautiful. I thought her Vancouver skates great and athletic and polished. But they did not move me.

    In 94, no one cared about Katarina Witt at the Olympics. Watch her LP. It was not full of smiles, nor great jumps, but one can feel her emotions about Sarajevo, a city she was the toast of in her career, and seeing it bombed to bits in the wars in Yugoslavia. I know all Korea loves Yuna like she was their daughter. As she matures, maybe I will find her skating more touching. She has had a sheltered life, yes? Mostly sucess and winning. We have a saying, there is more room in a broken heart.

    At SC Elene G skated to the very haunting, moving soundtrack from the film Schindler's List. She touched me. Paul Wylie, a great American artistic skater used this too. The music alone is terribly moving, as it evokes the true tragedy of the holocaust. But many skaters would never skate to such music, as they do not find it in their heart to feel such angst filled music. Watch Wylie's performance as a pro on youtube and then tell me if you understand what I am saying to you.

    Yuna is a skater to marvel at and admire in many ways. But there is this cool thing there-like Arakawa used to be-that did not touch me. Arakawa has lived some more and skates to Yugao which I know nothing about. But clearly this music makes her feel something and it is evident to me she is very much moved by it. I can feel it even though I know nothing right now about this music. She seems an artist now, primarily, not an athlete.

    I certainly am open to and very excited about what offerings Yuna will bring as she skates to Sochi. I just hope her heart is truly into it.
    As I said, you have your own taste and I have my own state. But, do you think only Koreans are YuNa's fans? Nonsense. She is the most popular skater out there.

    EDIT: I think you are trapped in your own thought. What you think is not a truth, it is just your own. I don't see what you see. Sorry. And, you seem not to see what I see.
    Last edited by cosmos; 11-02-2012 at 03:20 AM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Results cannot be manipulated in the same manner under CoP, in part because it is an agreggate scoring situation and not an ordinal placement. In order to win, you don't need a majority of judges placing you first, you need total marks placing you first which is pretty impossible to manipulate without knowing in advance how much higher judges who are not for the designated winner are going to score the competition.
    Not in the same manner, but manipulation is still possible. Because numbers count, and not just placements, a single outlier judge can have a significant effect on the outcome. If a judge if giving 9's to one skater and 7's to a skater who skated a better program, this can have an effect on the outcome. This doesn't seem "pretty impossible to manipulate" because it just happened last weekend. Why does it matter whether the outlier judge knows how the other judges are going to mark a program? He tried his best to create a gap in the marks and he achieved that.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Any discussion of manipulations by the federations of results under CoP displays gross ignorance of how the results were manipulated under 6.0. In part, it had to do with the number of Russian judges on the panel after the break-up of the former Soviet Union. With all of the Soviet federations being allowed one judge each on the panels, it was not uncommon at the big competitions to have 5 or more of the 9 judges aligned with the Eastern Block, thus allowing panels to manipulate the results when the situation allowed. It is critical to note that the skating has to justify the result for block judging to work.

    Results cannot be manipulated in the same manner under CoP, in part because it is an agreggate scoring situation and not an ordinal placement. In order to win, you don't need a majority of judges placing you first, you need total marks placing you first which is pretty impossible to manipulate without knowing in advance how much higher judges who are not for the designated winner are going to score the competition.

    In the case of the women's results at Skate Canada, Osmond didn't win the LP, Suzuki did. But Aikiko's SP was much lower marked that Osmond's and Suzuki's LP mark was not enough to overcome her problems in the SP.

    Reading these posts, I get the distinct impression that most of the people here have no idea what block judging was or how it worked. Folks are big at making accusations with little to no knowledge of how you would go about doing it.

    It's insulting to the skaters, the sport and the honesty of MOST of the officials to post these kinds of baseless accusations.
    The PCS difference from Osmond between the SP and FS (when you double the SP PCS for a comparable difference) was 4.91 points. Or to look it at a different way, the average component score improved by .61 of a point. The gain is as follows: Skating skills .66, Transition .64, Performance .65, Choreography .60, Interpretation .54.

    Let's look at Ashley Wagner, whose scores improved greatly over the season especially as her programs were more clean, technically harder and had more transitions and choreographic elements. Her PCS scores went from 55.32 at NHK in November to 57.44 in March at Worlds. The difference is 2.12 points. And consider the fact she came into Worlds as the 2012 4CC champion. Per component her improvements were the following: Skating skills .21, Transition .14, Performance .36, Choreography .25, Interpretation .40. The average improvement = .27

    Ashley Wagner reworks her programs all seasons long for an reward of .27 of a point on average by Worlds. Kaetlyn Osmond skates a killer awesome SP and ends up earning an average improvement of .61 on average virtually overnight.

    I think it's pretty clear why people are questioning things.

    ETA: Yes, I said I didn't want to beat a dead horse! But I thought this merited some mention. With that, I'm out again, unless there's something I need to respond to.

    ETA 2: And how much is .61 of an improvement? Carolina Kostner beat Akiko Suzuki in PCS on average per element by .81 points at Worlds. Hence the boost Osmond got in PCS is 75 percent of the margin between Carolina and Akiko.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-02-2012 at 12:13 AM. Reason: Getting the math right.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Was there any this level of concerns and outrage when Daisuke Takahashi got then world record SP score and such high total scores at WTT which he himself also thought they were way generous scores and brushed them off with smile? Was there any this level of concerns and outrage for the home-cooking points in Evan Lysacek's 2009 LA Worlds gold?
    1. Yes, by every Chan uber (not Chan fan, mind you) on the forum, yourself included. Dai is a modest skater and usually brushes off his scores with a smile. He did the same when he was the world record holder after 2008 4CC.

    2. Not really, because Lysacek was clearly the deserving champion and his scoring was reasonable considering how he performed and the rules at the time. Any home cooking, so to speak, was minor.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    How does an organization set up rules and regulations when the organization is made up of entities with competing interests and viewpoints?
    I think the NFL is the gold standard in this regard. Clearly the team owners have competing and converging interests, and they understand that having rules that benefit everyone is a good thing for the sport - even if some teams might have benefited even more from other rules. But that's not an international sport, so I'm not sure how apt the comparison is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Any discussion of manipulations by the federations of results under CoP displays gross ignorance of how the results were manipulated under 6.0. In part, it had to do with the number of Russian judges on the panel after the break-up of the former Soviet Union. With all of the Soviet federations being allowed one judge each on the panels, it was not uncommon at the big competitions to have 5 or more of the 9 judges aligned with the Eastern Block, thus allowing panels to manipulate the results when the situation allowed. It is critical to note that the skating has to justify the result for block judging to work.
    I am always suspicious when someone suggests that only Eastern-block judges do interesting things when judging or that the IJS can't be manipulated, no no, never ever. Both show gross ignorance of how skating works.

  11. #101
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    Boitano won the free skate., and was second in the figures to Fadeev, and second in the SP to Orser. Orser was 3rd in the figures, first in the SP, 2nd in the LP.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_...inter_Olympics

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Not in the same manner, but manipulation is still possible. Because numbers count, and not just placements, a single outlier judge can have a significant effect on the outcome. If a judge if giving 9's to one skater and 7's to a skater who skated a better program, this can have an effect on the outcome. This doesn't seem "pretty impossible to manipulate" because it just happened last weekend. Why does it matter whether the outlier judge knows how the other judges are going to mark a program? He tried his best to create a gap in the marks and he achieved that.
    One outlier judge would have his/her marks discarded immediately. Top and bottom marks don't count. One outlier judge would have no effect because their marks won't count, so no, that won't do it at all.

    Someone pointed out that Osmond's PCS went up overnight. That happens frequently with skaters who are new to the circuit. Their PCS marks change dramatically from the short to the long because they skate early in the first flight of the SP - Osmond was first to skate. Judges have told skaters to get themselves into the second flight because their PCS marks will go up. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

    As for the comparison of the increase in Wagner's PCS over the course of the season, that's not a valid comparison. Take a look at skaters who are new to the GP and watch what happens to PCS when skaters are in the last flight, compared to the first. That's where you can see changes big overnight changes in PCS.
    Last edited by Dragonlady; 11-02-2012 at 03:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I am always suspicious when someone suggests that only Eastern-block judges do interesting things when judging or that the IJS can't be manipulated, no no, never ever. Both show gross ignorance of how skating works.
    I never said that Eastern block judges are the only ones to manipulate results, but they been caught at it, and more than once. Block judging was only possible because the break-up of the Soviet Union allowed each of the former Soviet Republics to each have a judge at the table. No other federation had so many judges, and the Russian federation also loaned judges to small federations who had no one qualified. No other federation has had the opportunities for block judging that the breakup of the Soviet Union gave to the Russian Federation.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonlady View Post
    Someone pointed out that Osmond's PCS went up overnight. That happens frequently with skaters who are new to the circuit. Their PCS marks change dramatically from the short to the long because they skate early in the first flight of the SP - Osmond was first to skate. Judges have told skaters to get themselves into the second flight because their PCS marks will go up. It shouldn't make a difference, but it does.

    As for the comparison of the increase in Wagner's PCS over the course of the season, that's not a valid comparison. Take a look at skaters who are new to the GP and watch what happens to PCS when skaters are in the last flight, compared to the first. That's where you can see changes big overnight changes in PCS.
    Elizaveta Tuktamisheva, as we all know, also won her debut, at SC last year.

    She finished first after the SP, skating second out of ten skaters. Her PCS was 25.62
    She finished second in the FS, to Akiko Suzuki (wow feeling deja vu here) after skating last. Her PCS was 53.60. When you give the FS factor to her SP score (51.24), the difference is 2.36 points (vs. 4.91 for Osmond.). Also noting the gap between her and Akiko in PCS was 2 points even in the FS.
    Liza's improvement between SP and FS by component is as follows: Skating skills .43; Transitions .25; Performance .32; Choreography .43 and Interpretation .04. Average improvement = .29 (vs .61 for Osmond).

    It's also worth noting the judges did not give Liza all-around boost in the PCS scores in the FS and rightfully so.

    Again, I think it's reasonable to see why some people have valid questions regarding the judging and are not just giving careless opinions.

  15. #105
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Elizaveta Tuktamisheva, as we all know, also won her debut, at SC last year.

    She finished first after the SP, skating second out of ten skaters. Her PCS was 25.62
    She finished second in the FS, to Akiko Suzuki (wow feeling deja vu here) after skating last. Her PCS was 53.60. When you give the FS factor to her SP score (51.24), the difference is 2.36 points (vs. 4.91 for Osmond.). Also noting the gap between her and Akiko in PCS was 2 points even in the FS.
    Liza's improvement between SP and FS by component is as follows: Skating skills .43; Transitions .25; Performance .32; Choreography .43 and Interpretation .04. Average improvement = .29 (vs .61 for Osmond).

    It's also worth noting the judges did not give Liza all-around boost in the PCS scores in the FS and rightfully so.

    Again, I think it's reasonable to see why some people have valid questions regarding the judging and are not just giving careless opinions.
    ETA: Gosh, so much math on a late night!

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