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Thread: Evgeni Plushenko

  1. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcd View Post
    I realize that Russia only qualified one man/entry for the Men's event. I wasn't sure that the rules as established for the team event at the Olympics permitted a country the right to name a different skater, to represent them, competing in the Team event specifically.

    You sound quite confident in hour reply, so I would conclude then, that Plushy - if he is named "the one" - would be expected to perform in both the Team and Men's events; two shorts and two frees in ~2 weeks. The demands of essentially back to back Grand Prixs. Is that correct?
    It is correct!! It would be amazing too. Type of stuff that would make an artificial spinal disc be very useful! Lol. It's this schedule that makes me sometimes think maybe they'll just go with kovtun. I am sure tarasova is all over this!!

  2. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcd View Post
    I realize that Russia only qualified one man/entry for the Men's event. I wasn't sure that the rules as established for the team event at the Olympics permitted a country the right to name a different skater, to represent them, competing in the Team event specifically.

    You sound quite confident in hour reply, so I would conclude then, that Plushy - if he is named "the one" - would be expected to perform in both the Team and Men's events; two shorts and two frees in ~2 weeks. The demands of essentially back to back Grand Prixs. Is that correct?
    Yes, that is correct. if, say, we were to talk about Team USA, they could have one man skate the short and another the long, because they have two places for men at Sochi. But since Russia only earned one place for Sochi, that one man is going to have to do the team event AND the singles by himself. And if that's Plushy who is "the one"...well, that's a lot of work for a body held together by race tape and string.

    One query that I have not yet found a satisfactory answer to is what happens in a Konstantin Menshov style situation - for example, Kostya is "the one", skates the short of the team event, but at the end of his long in that event, dislocates his shoulder. Can Russia then replace him in the singles field, or is it a case of "tough luck"?

    (The discussion of Tarasova politicking for Kovtun is in the event that - heaven forbid - Plushy's body isn't quite as willing as his mind.)

  3. #408
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    The rules I read recently don't say anything about replacing an injured skater in the team event with a new one or the reserve for the individual. There's just nothing there about it.

    I don't think a healthy plushenko would prevent tarasova from being all over the place saying it'd be a mistake athletically not to consider excluding plushenko because of his surgeries!

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    I don't know... she's always seemed very positive about it, said how moved she'd be if he skated in Sochi. But you mean to say that situation has changed? Do we have any recent - recent-ish - statements from her regarding Sochi? That would be a way to gage which way that wind is blowing... Anyway, it's going to be an awful gamble however you slice & dice it, with only one man. I think most people would still want to put their money on Plushy, if he is still in any way able. In his case, it's his body that is in question - not his mind; and if anyone can command mind over matter, it's him. Also, think of the publicity and wow-factor of his skating his last in Sochi - it's going to be massive. So, all in all, I think that, everything else being equal, they'd still prefer to go with Plushy - even should Tarasova have changed her mind; which, again, do we know that she has, or is it sheer speculation on our part?

  5. #410
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    It's just total speculation! I'm sure tarasova would be interested in seeing plushenko skate but maybe not more than seeing a student if hers compete.

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    To let Kovtun skate on Olympics would not be so ideal and would be really extreme exceptional. Sure he is JGPF's winner but that probably is the highest international title he got. No matter how talented he is, he is extremely lack of experiences in international events.

    To let him give a shot to earn two spots for Russia is one thing, to represent Russia on Olympics is another. Unless the situation is way worse that: Plushenko (god forbid) cannot do it physically, Artur (hopes not) bombs again. If this is happening and Kovtun is doing extremely well (getting into GPF, winning RN, etc.), then Kovtun can be a good candidate.

    Kovtun maybe very talented, but he is no Yagudin (even for Yagudin, he had won quite some titles before he competed 1998 Olympics I think). Plushenko's skating is far more polished and powerful than Kovtun's. In fact, Plushenko's skating is the most powerful skating out there in the field. Russia would be really insane to put Plushenko aside for this event if his health can hold him.

    PS, I really like Artur's LP this year, it is so beautiful. I wish he could be the one to back Plushenko up. It is about time for him to show what he can do.

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    Plushenko needs health and two good programs. He shouldn't repeat the mistake he did in 2010 and cost him the OGM. Now it can cost him his health because of the huge effort he's making to get in shape.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yaya124 View Post
    To let Kovtun skate on Olympics would not be so ideal and would be really extreme exceptional. Sure he is JGPF's winner but that probably is the highest international title he got. No matter how talented he is, he is extremely lack of experiences in international events.

    To let him give a shot to earn two spots for Russia is one thing, to represent Russia on Olympics is another. Unless the situation is way worse that: Plushenko (god forbid) cannot do it physically, Artur (hopes not) bombs again. If this is happening and Kovtun is doing extremely well (getting into GPF, winning RN, etc.), then Kovtun can be a good candidate.

    Kovtun maybe very talented, but he is no Yagudin (even for Yagudin, he had won quite some titles before he competed 1998 Olympics I think). Plushenko's skating is far more polished and powerful than Kovtun's. In fact, Plushenko's skating is the most powerful skating out there in the field. Russia would be really insane to put Plushenko aside for this event if his health can hold him.

    PS, I really like Artur's LP this year, it is so beautiful. I wish he could be the one to back Plushenko up. It is about time for him to show what he can do.
    Obviously if Plushenko does COR, RN, EUROS will no problems and is always the first Russian man at those events then there would be no reason not to send him to Sochi. It would mean he's healthy and superior to all the others. But if he pulls out of COR that could be a warning. If he wins Russian nationals that would be a good sign for going to Sochi. I doubt he would lose there. If he goes to Euros and even if he doesn't medal but is first Russian man there than that is good for Sochi. I just think if he pulls out of COR or goes to euros and falls behind another non medaling Russian man that would be a reason for other coaches to campaign for their students to go to Sochi and do the team and individual. I mean it probably wont happen at all and if PLushenko goes to Euros and is first Russian man he goes even if he is all weakened and creaky and barely keeping it all together!

    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Plushenko needs health and two good programs. He shouldn't repeat the mistake he did in 2010 and cost him the OGM. Now it can cost him his health because of the huge effort he's making to get in shape.
    LOL Two good programs like it is so easy. Though he could have just gone to Lori Nichol and gotten right COP programs. That would maybe been the best thing to do. He didn't do that and of course probably never would have done that! But its always good to get a Lori Nichol program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Plushenko needs health and two good programs. He shouldn't repeat the mistake he did in 2010 and cost him the OGM. Now it can cost him his health because of the huge effort he's making to get in shape.
    Well, 2010 is always a good conversation topic, I suppose....But for me, I don't think one can be speak so certainly of what is the "mistake that cost him the OGM" (if any). Sorry, but it seems that since Vancouver, I've seen people (fans and haters and others in between) in various places argue along the lines of (1) "if he'd only done XYZ, he would have won" (e. g. more transitions, having "better" programs in some general sense (please see below), adding a double after the 4-3, leaving out the quad, etc., just to recall some I've seen), and use it to argue that (2) not doing XYZ is the "mistake" (i. e. the reason he didn't get gold in Vancouver). But in the end, hypothetical statements of type (1) cannot be proven or disproven, nor can they logically be used to prove (2), even if true.

    (My apologies. I know maybe this is not quite what you meant, but this type of arguments is maybe something I've become somewhat sensitive to.)

    More specifically to Plushenko in 2010, I feel that Aranjuez and Tango Amore had their strengths and weaknesses. Without getting into all that, I just want to mention that it seemed to me that before the 09/10 season started, many people were saying no, it's impossible, he's been gone too long, he's too old/overweight/injured, it's never been achieved before, etc. But after the Olympics, all that was forgotten, and the general chorus, at least to my not-very-objective eyes, seemed to have to turned to why didn't he do this, if he'd only done that (my italics), this shows he must've not understood modern figure skating/had a bad attitude/been arrogant, etc. To be frank, I find it somewhat ironic, and not in a happy way if I may say so. (Actually, I even want to say that perhaps there might've been something similar in 2006, though he won the gold that time. But that's the topic for another rant.) Overall, I believe that he and his team understood the issues involved. But he's the one who has to skate the programs. Talking about "huge effort to get in shape" and "costing his health"....That's something he's already done, and I would say done more than once.

    (More generally, as a side note, may I say that I'm personally not a huge fan of the phrase "good program", as it appears to be often used, in the absense of more detailed descriptions/analysis? IMHO, there are multiple artistic and technical aspects to a skating program, some of which are not necessarily correlated, and some of which may even possibly be conflicting, which the phrase--again just IMHO--seems to have a tendency to conflate. But again....topic for another rant.)

    As for what Plushenko needs to do or should do in this upcoming final season....Well, I guess if I were to talk about my own wishes (while making it clear that it is not a matter of what I think he should do), I hope he skates in a way that can satisfy himself, and that his programs mesh with him physically and artistically. Beyond that, I hope he'll be able to still take artistic risks, and that he'll get good results. But if I have to choose, the first hope is the most primary at this point, for me personally.

    Again, I am sorry. A few of the posters here know me from other places, and they know that I have a tendency to get emo/verbose at times when it comes to Plushy. It's one of the perks of being a fan of him, I guess.

  10. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebamboo View Post
    Well, 2010 is always a good conversation topic, I suppose....But for me, I don't think one can be speak so certainly of what is the "mistake that cost him the OGM" (if any). Sorry, but it seems that since Vancouver, I've seen people (fans and haters and others in between) in various places argue along the lines of (1) "if he'd only done XYZ, he would have won" (e. g. more transitions, having "better" programs in some general sense (please see below), adding a double after the 4-3, leaving out the quad, etc., just to recall some I've seen), and use it to argue that (2) not doing XYZ is the "mistake" (i. e. the reason he didn't get gold in Vancouver). But in the end, hypothetical statements of type (1) cannot be proven or disproven, nor can they logically be used to prove (2), even if true.

    (My apologies. I know maybe this is not quite what you meant, but this type of arguments is maybe something I've become somewhat sensitive to.)

    More specifically to Plushenko in 2010, I feel that Aranjuez and Tango Amore had their strengths and weaknesses. Without getting into all that, I just want to mention that it seemed to me that before the 09/10 season started, many people were saying no, it's impossible, he's been gone too long, he's too old/overweight/injured, it's never been achieved before, etc. But after the Olympics, all that was forgotten, and the general chorus, at least to my not-very-objective eyes, seemed to have to turned to why didn't he do this, if he'd only done that (my italics), this shows he must've not understood modern figure skating/had a bad attitude/been arrogant, etc. To be frank, I find it somewhat ironic, and not in a happy way if I may say so. (Actually, I even want to say that perhaps there might've been something similar in 2006, though he won the gold that time. But that's the topic for another rant.) Overall, I believe that he and his team understood the issues involved. But he's the one who has to skate the programs. Talking about "huge effort to get in shape" and "costing his health"....That's something he's already done, and I would say done more than once.

    (More generally, as a side note, may I say that I'm personally not a huge fan of the phrase "good program", as it appears to be often used, in the absense of more detailed descriptions/analysis? IMHO, there are multiple artistic and technical aspects to a skating program, some of which are not necessarily correlated, and some of which may even possibly be conflicting, which the phrase--again just IMHO--seems to have a tendency to conflate. But again....topic for another rant.)

    As for what Plushenko needs to do or should do in this upcoming final season....Well, I guess if I were to talk about my own wishes (while making it clear that it is not a matter of what I think he should do), I hope he skates in a way that can satisfy himself, and that his programs mesh with him physically and artistically. Beyond that, I hope he'll be able to still take artistic risks, and that he'll get good results. But if I have to choose, the first hope is the most primary at this point, for me personally.

    Again, I am sorry. A few of the posters here know me from other places, and they know that I have a tendency to get emo/verbose at times when it comes to Plushy. It's one of the perks of being a fan of him, I guess.
    Well said! Be verbose as often as you like, whitebamboo! Always well-thought-out, and well-argued - and I love your passion!

    I especially agree with the before/after scenario of Vancouver - which you will not find me bringing up, as thinking about it still makes me feel sick to my soul. But it seems to be often the case - people forget the scenario "before" and what they were saying, and what "everybody" was saying when the situation changes. I see this a lot - as for example, who now recalls the people who were gloating at the prospect of the first LOTR movie flopping, and that they'd then have two more duds on their hands which they had already paid for? People's memories are so... short.

  11. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by whitebamboo View Post
    More specifically to Plushenko in 2010, I feel that Aranjuez and Tango Amore had their strengths and weaknesses. Without getting into all that, I just want to mention that it seemed to me that before the 09/10 season started, many people were saying no, it's impossible, he's been gone too long, he's too old/overweight/injured, it's never been achieved before, etc. But after the Olympics, all that was forgotten, and the general chorus, at least to my not-very-objective eyes, seemed to have to turned to why didn't he do this, if he'd only done that (my italics), this shows he must've not understood modern figure skating/had a bad attitude/been arrogant, etc. To be frank, I find it somewhat ironic, and not in a happy way if I may say so. (Actually, I even want to say that perhaps there might've been something similar in 2006, though he won the gold that time. But that's the topic for another rant.) Overall, I believe that he and his team understood the issues involved. But he's the one who has to skate the programs. Talking about "huge effort to get in shape" and "costing his health"....That's something he's already done, and I would say done more than once.

    (More generally, as a side note, may I say that I'm personally not a huge fan of the phrase "good program", as it appears to be often used, in the absense of more detailed descriptions/analysis? IMHO, there are multiple artistic and technical aspects to a skating program, some of which are not necessarily correlated, and some of which may even possibly be conflicting, which the phrase--again just IMHO--seems to have a tendency to conflate. But again....topic for another rant.)

    As for what Plushenko needs to do or should do in this upcoming final season....Well, I guess if I were to talk about my own wishes (while making it clear that it is not a matter of what I think he should do), I hope he skates in a way that can satisfy himself, and that his programs mesh with him physically and artistically. Beyond that, I hope he'll be able to still take artistic risks, and that he'll get good results. But if I have to choose, the first hope is the most primary at this point, for me personally.
    Ok. Am I overestimating Plushenko if I think that he would be able to skate to a program like Yuna's, Fernandez's (I'm not talking about the technical content, I don't expect Evgeni to have three quads), Ten's, etc? As a fan, you should know that Plushenko is satisfied only when he wins gold. Let's suppose that his expectations aren't so high anymore considering his age and injuries/surgeries, still, making the podium in Sochi is not an easy task.
    I would be intererested in your opinion about Aranjuez' strenghts.

  12. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Ok. Am I overestimating Plushenko if I think that he would be able to skate to a program like Yuna's, Fernandez's (I'm not talking about the technical content, I don't expect Evgeni to have three quads), Ten's, etc? As a fan, you should know that Plushenko is satisfied only when he wins gold. Let's suppose that his expectations aren't so high anymore considering his age and injuries/surgeries, still, making the podium in Sochi is not an easy task.
    I would be intererested in your opinion about Aranjuez' strenghts.
    As I'm sure he is well aware. Also, I doubt he is interested in easy tasks - I think that part of the attraction is the challenge. But, if he is there, you can be assured he will be going all out, for the kill - regardless of where he ends up in the rankings.

  13. #418
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    Agree. Go for the kill. Kill it. Just go for the kill.

  14. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Ok. Am I overestimating Plushenko if I think that he would be able to skate to a program like Yuna's, Fernandez's (I'm not talking about the technical content, I don't expect Evgeni to have three quads), Ten's, etc?
    Given that this is Plushenko's fan fest thread, I don't know if I should spend too much time arguing about his relative merits here....If the question is whether he would be able to (physically) or if he would try to skate any specific type of program, then I do not know the answer to that. Though I must say that I am not certain what is meant by "overestimating him" here. It makes sense to conjecture that he and his team would try to put in the technical contents to the best of their ability, but as you say, the technical aspects was not meant here. So does it mean the artistic side of things? He is not any of the other skaters listed in your post, why should he copy them artistically? Is this what is meant by "good programs" here?

    About Aranjuez specifically, to be honest I am not certain if this is a rhetorical question....I will only talk about how it spoke to me here. To me, there is a great deal of masculine power in this program, (and just in case of possible misunderstandings, "masculine" here is not used to imply superiority in constrast to "feminine", but more descriptive, with the understanding that it possesses its own value, and "power" here is not exactly in the physical sense), yet that power was not thrown out, but well-controlled and balanced. And at the same time, one can sense the "still center of things" within, to use a perhaps too-wild metaphor. It is mature in image, and I am not certain that the Plushenko of say 03-05--for all his glories--would have been able to carry as well. It "fitted" him, showcasing his innate charisma. (I put "fit" in quotation marks because I am currently developing the view that with Plushenko on ice, perhaps I do not want to draw such a perfect dividing line between his person and his programs.) From what I've seen in various places, it is a program that has captivated people who knew nothing of him or of figure skating before, and made them into fans.

    "But that's all subjective, emotional, romantic nonsense," I know many will say. They will point to the jump layout, transitions, etc. To which I would say , yes, maybe these are weaknesses of this program, but as far as I am concerned, these are technical weaknesses and not fundamentally artistic ones (which is not to say that they are unimportant. And just to be super-finicky about things here, by "technical", right now I mean in the sense of figure skating as a sport, and not in the sense of something like "artistic technique".) But if one would speak of the artistic side of this program or any other, then I believe one does need to talk about unity, ideas, themes, emotions it evokes, ways it makes one or many members of the audience see something in the world differently. In other words, talk about it as if it were art. I do know that one can argue about the need or importance of such things to figure skating. For the moment, I only want to say that I find them important, at least in the context of his skating, and they are one of the main reasons why I am a Plushenko fan.

    (Sorry, I know this is still all too brief and vague and not so thought out yet. But you've definitely got me thinking; though right now I am unable to rewatch the videos. I'll try to work on it some more later, when I get the chance.)


    As a fan, you should know that Plushenko is satisfied only when he wins gold.
    As a fan, no, I do not know this. It would be presumptuous of me to imagine that I know any such thing. In fact, at this point I don't even conjecture it.

  15. #420
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    I'm your big fan Whitebamboo!

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