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Thread: Relearning jumps; halves before wholes

  1. #1
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    Relearning jumps; halves before wholes

    I learned to do my full loops, flips, and lutzes without ever doing the half jump versions of them during the process (started doing them later). Now I'm trying to make myself re-learn stuff (a few decades later) and I don't know how I managed to just immediately do whole jumps. For the loop it's a matter of getting up in the air. For the flip it's a matter of being chicken. I'm not planning on working on lutzes any time soon (if ever - I hated those things).

    I especially question the usefulness of learning a half loop as a prerequisite to learning a full loop, because of the weight shift, and in fact think that doing them is making it harder for me to get back the regular loop jump. I go to try a full and am now in the habit of automatically letting my weight go over to the wrong side as if doing a half.

    (Note: I do not have a coach presently, because it hasn't been in the budget which is extremely tight; I'm trying to find a way to fit the expense in, but for now I'm totally on my own).
    Last edited by treesprite; 10-31-2012 at 10:05 PM.

  2. #2
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    No, the half-loop isn't very useful for learning loops. If you want to focus on getting the loop back, you'd probably be better off not practicing half-loops for a while. Do backspins instead.

    After you're comfortable with the loop again, then you can go back and put the half-loop back in your repertoire if you like it as a connecting move in steps or jump sequences/combos.

  3. #3
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    I agree that the half loop isn't really a half jump - it's even considered a full rotation jump by USFSA... it's a great connecting move if you can do it, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of emphasis on it while you are trying to get the loop back - just save it for later

    However, I would strongly caution against attempting to re-learn jumps without a coach - you'll be setting yourself up to develop some bad habits along the way - even if you are relying on video to coach yourself, having someone who understands the mechanics and can pick apart little things you may miss is invaluable. Even if all you can do is one 15 minute lesson a month (and assuming you could find a coach willing to commit to that) it would help immensely.

  4. #4
    Sitting Here on Blue Jay Way silver.blades's Avatar
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    Just my two cents as a coach. I don't believe in teaching half jumps. (half loop is really it's own jump.) I feel that it encourages the skater to open up early when they move to higher rotations and they are more likely to bail. I'd do walkthroughs or off ice work if you're having trouble fully rotating the jumps. Just my opinion.

  5. #5
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    Thanks for the responses.

    I know how to do the jumps in my head because I used to do them, but when I go to execute them it's like my head and body are in two different places.

    As far as videos go, I can't find any that can tell me anything about jumps that I don't already know.

    My timing is gone. That is where a coach is needed, to tell me exactly when to move what in coordination with the rest of the movement.

    Let me see if I can think this in words....

    Flips I always went into from a FO 3 turn, reaching/stretching my leg back very far without bending it (back leg straight, front/free leg bent), then pulling myself backwards and up. It felt more like I was pulling myself into the air somehow, rather than pushing myself upward. Like the combination of arm motions and the backward motion creating an upward momentum of the upper body, then at the end the body is fully backward to the spot where the toe is in the ice, at which point there is a push from the toe to get itself caught up with the rest of the body in the air. The rotation just falls into place once the picking leg catches up to the free leg so legs and arms can all be pulled in tight. In fact, I don't know that I ever really thought specifically about rotating when I used to do them, just pulling up and then pulling everything in tight. My old coach would always emphasize the reaching of the back leg and the pulling, not any mention of "swinging" anything to go around (she moved out of state a couple years ago, but at around 80yo she may not be teaching anymore anyway). But I have to coordinate the arm motions with the leg motions, and that is where my timing fails me.

    The loop is more like I can't get the edge properly to find the right spot along it at which I need to take off, and then I keep letting my weight shift wrong. But then again, I was told recently by the skate place (not at the rink I go to), that the sole of the boot for that jumping leg needs to be sanded a bit because the blade is at a slight tilt... maybe if I do that, I will have an easier time getting off that edge (I had it done to the other boot already, which made a big difference). I just don't want to delude myself into believing that the primary issue is the skate and not the fact that it's been X number of years and 20 lbs since the last time I could just fly up into the air on a whim like a feather.

    I was just getting up the nerve to do axels in May, but every time I'd start the revolution I'd chicken out in mid air and open back up. Then school got out for summer and I could only skate once a week, during which I was too distracted by kids to really work on anything, so I regressed which really is frustrating.

    There are a lot of really great coaches where I skate, so picking one is not going to be easy. The one I had originally talked to and was planning to hire it turns out is not going to be able to meet potential future needs - she would be fine for now, but I would rather start with someone who I can keep regardless of what direction my skating takes.
    Last edited by treesprite; 11-02-2012 at 12:53 AM.

  6. #6
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    I keep dropping my inside hip when trying to do loops. I guess doing half loops does nothing for me right now other than teach me to drop the hip to land on the inside edge.

  7. #7
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    I'm going to have to agree with silver.blades on the half jumps. I never learned them (except for the half loop to combine salcows) and I don't remember ever having a problem to complete single jumps right away (Axels excluded, of course).
    Being probably the biggest chicken to ever skate I totally understand your fear of not completing the rotation. I still feel it sometimes with the lutz. Although, I promise you, you WILL complete single rotation jumps if you attempt them. I do, even though I don't get much height (I like to blame the skates for that.. ). A single rotation doesn't require any special athletic abilities or something like that.

    You should definitely start working with a coach, and if you're chicken too then I recommend you hire a tough one, trust me. A lot of times being under pressure encourages you to do things you would never dare to do when you're on your own (for me, that is). But any way.. I can try and give you some tips.

    First of all, about the timing (in general, of course you have to feel it): for salcow count 1,2 (FO), turn, 1,2,3 (BI) and jump on 4. toe loop and flip: 1 (F), 1(B) and jump.

    Height - still struggling with that myself. But what my coach always tells me is, for salcow and toe loop: try to always through your right knee as high up and forward as you can. Make sure your ankle is open for the jump. For loop, flip and lutz, lift up your left knee high as you use your arms to catch the momentum of the jump. Using only your right leg won't get you very high up.

    Maybe you need to sharpen your blades to get a better edge position for the loop.

  8. #8
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    As far as the blade goes, the shop agreed with me that the bottom of my left boot needs to be sanded flat/even (other one was done and it made a big difference). I am a lefty skater, so I do my loop off of the left. Maybe after the sanding I'll make some loop progress, but I can't get it done until after the holidays.

  9. #9
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    I'm relearning my Salchow. Oh the pain in my hip!

    I've got all my singles now except for the Salchow and Axle.

    I'm learning how to do the Salchow on the the same one foot for take-off/landing. The torque is hard on my hip.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onthinice View Post
    I'm relearning my Salchow. Oh the pain in my hip!

    I've got all my singles now except for the Salchow and Axle.

    I'm learning how to do the Salchow on the the same one foot for take-off/landing. The torque is hard on my hip.
    Do you mean on an inside edge the way a half loop lands on an inside edge? If so, why?

  11. #11
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    Welcome to Golden Skate, Onthinice!

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