Dance & Pairs Televised Thoughts...

DANCE:

Feel conflicted about Naomi Lang ......want to support her b/c I, myself, am American Indian (mom is half Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux & half French and daddy is quarter Blackfeet/Athabascan & three-fourths Swedish).......however, despite reading about her in Indian Country Today et al, she & her partner just do not move me. And I have to be honest & say that Peter T. seems to be the more charismatic of the two, not to mention IMHO they just don't seem like a true dance pair on the ice. Anyhow, I have watched them in the past w/my family members (especially during the Olympics) and we are all proud of Naomi and wish her & her partner luck. However, I still maintain that ice dance isn't a sport, rather an art (as it should be). JMHO.

***Note: the only thing that really makes me mad about L&T withdrawing is that it gives one, whom I consider a racist, the pleasure of putting down Naomi all over the net (though not here on Golden Skate of course).***

B&A - wish them luck at Worlds.......not much else to say b/c, as I stated earlier, I don't really watch this particular discipline......but it seems to be the general consensus that this team will put America on the map in ice dance. And for that I am grateful.

PAIRS

Steigler & Cording - ah, what a pleasure to see Tiffany skate since I can't remember when.......IMHO she is the Sasha Cohen of pairs skating in terms of presentation........just in a different way. Still, there are two parts in f.s. ~ presentation & technical ~ and, alas, she is lacking on the latter. Too bad (lovely skate nevertheless).

Don & Hunt - Jennifer is definitely the best jumper in pairs.......and that doesn't just include the women IMHO........too bad about the fall on the throw jump though. That said, they still need a little more work on their presentation, but it's coming along nicely. Btw, didn't like the costumes ~ made Jennifer look bigger than what she is IMHO.

Hinzmann & Parchem - what to say......Aaron remains my favorite men's pair skater in the USA......but he still hasn't found the right partner IMHO. Like Stephanie, Marcy too is great when it comes to the presentation, but lacking on the jumps. But then again, this appears endemic amongst American pairs in general.


S&D - nice & steady, but boring IMHO ........yet until somebody else steps up to the plate they'll remain the best of the not-so-best.........JMHO.

Orscher & Lucash - ah, I remember these two during the Holiday Ice Dreams Special........absolutely loved their "Iris" program.........and as a result couldn't wait to see them at Nationals. And they didn't disappoint - her flair & flexibility coupled w/his strength is stunning - gorgeous throw jump & split twist!

Inoue & Baldwin - hmmm, I just don't get how they came in second......IIRC she fell once & they had another bobble......and IMHO their presentation is just okay. But good for fans of this pair - I know what it's like when your favorites place well (no lie). ^)

Peace & Love, Nadine

Great analysis, Nadine. I was wondering how I would react to seeing the ordinal judging system after the COP during the GP series. I hate the ordinal system and Inoue/Baldwin were one of the prime examples. Two first place votes and I think two 4th place votes--not sure and I'm watching "Adaptation" (love this movie) so don't want to look at the tape. Anyway, their ordinals were all over the place and yet we have no idea why. With the COP, we could see exactly how each judge scored them on each element plus for each component. So I'm missing the COP.

As I said on the Stiegler/Cording thread, Tiffany was gorgeous. Good comparison to Sasha, I think. Anyway, would love to see Tiffany with a partner that works and for her to get her technique on her SBS jumps, plus the speed. But gorgeous.

And I love Tanith and Ben. Sad for Naomi and Peter, but B/A are looking like a seasoned team and I LOVE their chemistry.
Rgirl

I don't think Tiffany is like Sasha. They both have great extension and lovely positions, but Tiffany is a ballarina, a dancer, Sasha is more of a poser IMO. Tiffany moves in a natural way and her extension is unforced. Sasha always appears to be trying a little too hard to get that superior stretch. And Tiffany's arms are so soft and expressive of the music while Sasha's move in a generic way. And Tiffany's body is loose and supple whereas Sasha's always looks tense and rigid to me.

Nadine, have you seen Naomi & Peter live? I have a few times, and I liked them very much (more than on tv), but I absolutely loved their "Parisian Walkways." It was magical. They really seemed like one; had great chemistry, etc. Although I agree that Peter is more charismatic of the two, etc.

It was sad to see them like that yesterday. Naomi was on the verge of crying, and Peter's eyes were just so sad. Btw, I hope you won't consider this bashing, but I think that Naomi should've taken care of that problem last year, like she said she should've. Well, we all make mistakes. I hope her surgery is successful and she fully recovers.

I think B&A are great, but their programs this year... zzzzzzzzzzzz.

I couldn't believe it how fast Gregory & Petukhov were. And Denis seems more comfortable with the program. When I saw it for the first time (at the beginning of the season), I forgot that Morozov's their coach (lol, now that's a mental lapse for ya), and I thought: "Why are they trying to imitate Morozov?", or something like that.

As for Tiffany Steigler, she looked lovely, but somewhat unstable on the ice (on the technical side, that is).

I agree about Hinzmann & Parchem; his new partner seems to be making the same mistakes as his old one.

Inoue & Baldwin - they're getting better (more polished), but for the life of me I couldn't understand how they got so high presentation marks.

What did you all think of the placements?

Rgirl - I'm with you - I miss the CoP.

I was disappointed in the number of mistakes in the pairs event overall.

That being said, I'm interested in what everyone who knows skating much better than I do think of the placements. I'm not so sure I agreed with the judges.

DG

What you couldn't see on TV was that I&B were much faster than anybody else out there. And they are skating a very complex program, with the best SBS spin (speed, closeness), best SBS f/w,
most interesting BODSpiral and a very interesting lift.
I am not surprised this didn't look as good on TV.

S&D went even slower after their SBS jumps and they were slow to start. And the chest crash on the double twist was pronounced.

Orscher and Lucash's problems with lifts are not trivial. And like falling on the 2A in singles, problems with lifts are often much more punished by judges than might be easy to understand, just because the judges tend to think there is no excuse for it.
However, they have improved hugely since I saw them at SA.

dpp

Really enjoyed seeing the dance/pairs short programs last night. I honestly hadn't been expecting much, particularly from the U.S. pairs, considering their lack of international success this season, but I was pleasantly surprised to see so many good performances. Maybe there's hope yet for the pairs! Anyhow, some further thoughts . . .


Pairs

Stiegler & Cording: I agree with everyone else that this pair is lovely to watch, especially Tiffany! I've always thought she was extremely talented and I was disappointed that her career with Johnny didn't go anywhere. I'm glad she hasn't given up on skating. This may seem like a bit of a stretch, but Tiffany has always reminded me very much of Katia Gordeeva. She has a similar combination of elegance, musicality, femininity, and charisma. Now, if only she can become a little more secure with the jumps!

Don & Hunt: I frankly wasn't impressed with their performance and couldn't understand why Peter Carruthers kept raving about it. Yes, they have nice knees and edges, but everything else was weak. The lift was poorly done, the split twist also was not good, and the throw triple flip, well, we all saw what happened there. I thought they were overmarked. (And I agree that Jennifer's costume was not flattering to her.)

Handy & Allen: Skated well. Some of Laura's positions need improvement--a bit more stretch and extension--and it would be nice to see her relate more to the crowd. But overall they skated well, and in my opinion were undermarked (especially in relation to Don & Hunt). I have to wonder about their future as a pair, though. They don't have a classic pairs look on the ice, because they are much closer in height than a lot of today's pairs. I don't know how important that is, but it does seem like all the top pairs have a pretty big height difference.

Hinzmann & Parchem: I liked this pair. Yes, Marcy had some problems with the jumps, and they were marked down appopriately for that. But I think they have a nice look together. On first glance, I think Marcy is probably a better match for Aaron sytlistically than Stephanie Kalesavich was. Also, Marcy looks a little shorter than Stephanie, and that may help with their lifts and split twists.

Orser & Lucash: I thought they skated great. The program was very nice and they didn't have a single mistake. Their speed seemed fine to me as well (although admittedly, it's hard to judge ice speed on TV). Frankly I'm a bit shocked that they're in third place. I thought they had the performance of the night.

Inoue & Baldwin: They recovered well from the fall on the throw, but overall a pretty disappointing skate. I was hoping to see a lot better performance from them. I respect their skills and their speed on the ice, but I think their second-place finish was a bit of a gift from the judges.

Scott & Dulebohn: Another disappointing program. As much as I want to like this pair, I just can't work up any enthusiasm for them. They have a good pairs look on the ice, but they just don't bring any emotion to their skating. I feel like they're skating next to each other, not *with* each other. Their win in the short was a clear case of reputation judging, as opposed to merit-based judging.

In general, I felt there was a lot of reputation judging going on in the pairs, with Don & Hunt and Inoue & Baldwin being the other main beneficiaries. It makes me really hope that the USFSA adopts the COP for next year's Nationals. Although the COP certainly isn't perfect, at least it cuts down on reputation judging and skaters being artificially held up.


Dance

Lang & Tchernyshev: Very sad to see them withdraw. I hope this won't be the end of their partnership. I thought it was pretty cold of Peter to leave the building afterward and not appear with Naomi during her interview. I know he was disappointed, but I don't think you should just walk out on your partner after something like that. She was obviously heartbroken too. Naomi & Peter have had a lot of bad luck in their career--more than most teams. It's very unfortunate. By all rights they should be competing for a world medal at this point--a few years ago, they were right up there in the standings with Navka & Kostomarov and Denkova & Staviyski and in fact placed above both teams at certain points. I was really hoping to see them skate well at Nationals and Worlds, and now this.

Belbin & Agosto: They skated very well. I love the lightness and playfulness they have on the ice. And boy, does Tanith know how to play to the crowd. She doesn't miss a beat! She sells every move in their program as hard as she can. You have to give that girl an A for effort. She doesn't rest on her laurels one little bit.

Gregory & Petukhov: I'm enjoying this team more and more. They're polished, strong, confident--and they relate so well to each other on the ice. They're fun to watch. I really enjoyed their program. Loved her costume, too.

Galler-Rabinowitz & Mitchell: This is the first time I've seen this team. I thought they were okay, but can't say I was hugely impressed. Their program seemed fairly simple.

Goodwin & Bommentre: I liked this team quite a bit. They did have some unison problems, but that's to be expected, considering their short time together. I thought they had a nice connection with each other. And she in particular has a nice look on the ice and a lot of energy. Definitely potential there.

Moxley & Kirsanov: They were smooth and powerful, as Peggy and Peter said, but I felt they were lacking in energy. Just not a whole lot of excitement.

Gibbons & Pekarek: The unfortunate thing, watching these two, is that I just keep thinking back to how great he was with Jamie Sliverstein. What a shame that they broke up. I think he and his new partner have a way to go yet.

Looking forward to mens and ladies tonight.

Yeay! Gotta love the Melissa and Denis love

Doris,
As always, important to hear analysis from someone who is there seeing it live. As much as I believe (or want to believe, lol) that I've gotten better seeing speed on TV, as the ad says, there's nothing like the real thing, baby. Also, very true that not all mistakes are considered equal, not matter what the rules say about how many tenths of a point off a team should get. I'm not saying the judges ignore those, but what looks like a horrible splat to us on TV needs to be evaluated in terms of the difficulty of the element. Also, as far as I know a fall is a fall, whether you fall in an "elegant" way or flat on your face. Of course the way the fall happens may affect th presentation mark, especially if it takes the skaters a long time to get back on course with the program. But I/B recovered ASAP. Anyway, I rewatched the tape this morning and after a second look, their higher ordinals didn't seem so "what the?" to me. Though I still find the ordinal system frustrating compared to COP. Just my personal preference.
Rgirl

It was sad to see L & T that I teared up. I couldn't help it. Peter was disappointed, sad, hurt and a little cold. I think it would have been better if Lang just sat this season out and got her foot fix. I thought she would have taken care of that while she was taking a break. I'm sure Pete was thinking I could have skipped all this training and not have any expectations of coming back. It hurts more when you get your hopes up like that. I think that hurt Lang more to see Peter's face.

I wish S/C had skated better but after that scary crash in warmup I understand why. I thought they skated well, but (understandably) cautious. I really hope ABC shows their LP.

At first the COP were hard to get use to, but after watching last night with the judges using the 6.0 system I sure did miss the COP. I think the placements in the pairs would have been a little different.

I am wondering if Scott and Dulebohn will ever do a clean program at the Nationals. I hope their long program will be error free, but if not I am sure the judges will give them the title.

I was very impressed with Orscher and Lucash's short program and thought they should of had that 2nd spot.

I felt bad for Naomi and Peter, but why oh why didn't she have that surgery on her ankle long before Nationals? This is just too bad to not see them skate.

I've always enjoyed Naomi and Peter's skating, and I feel really bad for them. I always thought if they had more danicng in between their spectacular highlights, they could have easily been a top five team. Here's hoping they rebound.

Enjoyed reading your analysis, eyria ~ felt like I was the one that typed what you said (lol). Thus, I wanted to comment on two observations in particular...

eyria said:

Stiegler & Cording: This may seem like a bit of a stretch, but Tiffany has always reminded me very much of Katia Gordeeva. She has a similar combination of elegance, musicality, femininity, and charisma. Now, if only she can become a little more secure with the jumps!

ME: yes, ITA, she too reminds me of Katia Gordeeva more than all others (no lie)......though I still think she is the Sasha Cohen of American pairs in terms of presentation......and by that I mean/meant she is the epitome of presentation (as is Sasha) but in a different way. And that different way being in what you stated up above & also what shine said also. JMHO

Hinzmann & Parchem: On first glance, I think Marcy is probably a better match for Aaron sytlistically than Stephanie Kalesavich was.

ME: yes, ITA once again, my thoughts exactly.......to me, they look more like a true pair (i.e. two halves of a perfect whole)......however, Stephanie made the pair look equally exquisite (more like Ken & Barbie IMHO). In all honesty, I prefer both, but the one that can land the jumps would be my ultimate pick. And in that regard, it seems to me, that Stephanie was a 'tad' better. JMHO. Will have to view more performances from this pair in future. Wish them luck.

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windspirit, I'm not really sure if I have seen L&T skate live.......but I don't think so.......last time I went to COI was when Oksana Baiul was part of the cast back in 2000 or 2001. However, I appreciate your comments. Btw, the only program I really kinda liked was the one where they skated to the "Scorpions". Btw, no, I don't consider what you said bashing ~ please don't worry about what I may think, just type what you feel, I do ~ my reference to the one up above was in regards to, literally, years of Naomi bashing (nothing to really do w/her skating, rather her as a person). And this is the only time I have ever mentioned it (no lie).

***Note: funny, but the Naomi & Peter pairing reminded me exactly of the George Balanchine & Maria Tallchief pairing back in the 1940's, especially after reading Maria's book entitled Maria Tallchief: America's Prima Ballerina (a must read).***

Peace & Love, Nadine (on my way to post my thoughts about tonight's men & ladies SPs)

I was so disappointed to see L&T withdraw. I just felt sad for them. I'm not sure we will see them in the amateur ranks again. I would have thought Naomi would have had that taken care of during the off-season.

I don't enjoy the dance as much as I used to. I'm not really crazy about all the music with vocals. I think it takes away from the interpretation of the music and I really find it annoying after a while.

Yes, I have suffered. I have just viewed 20, count them, 20, US pairs. And the final group of junior pairs.

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Isn't it amazing what we will do sometimes for love of sport?


Was embarrassed for Tiffany Scott at her attempts of excuses after their SP.

Nadine I don't know who you are talking about that has been bashing Naomi for YEARS as I'm new to these boards and guess I have never seen that. But I would suspect it is someone who is jealous of her for some reason or other. Why else would you waste your time bashing someone you probably don't even know? I don't understand bashing anyway, or why anyone would want to waste time & energy doing it, unless there is some ulterior motive behind it. Regardless, I was heartbroken to see Naomi & Peter withdraw at Nationals. It was one of the saddest things I have ever seen! OMG I felt so bad for both of them! As far as the Pairs event, I felt badly for S&D but also happy for Inoue & Baldwin, I like their skating and think they could do well.