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Thread: Different 3-3s

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Different 3-3s

    I was watching Shelepen's recent performances, and I found out that she attempted FOUR different 3-3s in the last competitions:
    3T+3T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_89D...feature=relmfu)
    3S+3T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnQ-hIJsIg)
    3Lz+3T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnQ-hIJsIg)
    3Lz+3Lo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlBllbnRZC0 And, I don't remember where, but I saw her landing it earlier this season: she fell, but it looked fully rotated!)
    Could she be the lady who landed (even if not perfectly) the highest numer of different 3-3s? Adelina landed three of them (3T+3T, 3Lz+3T and 3Lz+3Lo), the same Liza (3T+3T, 3S+3T, 3Lz+3T), Kostner (3F+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3T+3T) and Yu-Na (the same as Carolina)... Do you remember any other lady who landed more than three different 3-3s?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I was watching Shelepen's recent performances, and I found out that she attempted FOUR different 3-3s in the last competitions:
    3T+3T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_89D...feature=relmfu)
    3S+3T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnQ-hIJsIg)
    3Lz+3T (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcnQ-hIJsIg)
    3Lz+3Lo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlBllbnRZC0 And, I don't remember where, but I saw her landing it earlier this season: she fell, but it looked fully rotated!)
    Could she be the lady who landed (even if not perfectly) the highest numer of different 3-3s? Adelina landed three of them (3T+3T, 3Lz+3T and 3Lz+3Lo), the same Liza (3T+3T, 3S+3T, 3Lz+3T), Kostner (3F+3T, 3Lz+3T, 3T+3T) and Yu-Na (the same as Carolina)... Do you remember any other lady who landed more than three different 3-3s?
    Shiz did 3Lz-3T 3T-3T 3Sal-3T and 3Sal-3Loop in competitions.
    She had the 3Lz-3Loop but never put them in.
    She also had the 3T3T3Loop or 3Sal3T3Loop in practice.

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    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Shiz did 3Lz-3T 3T-3T 3Sal-3T and 3Sal-3Loop in competitions.
    She had the 3Lz-3Loop but never put them in.
    She also had the 3T3T3Loop or 3Sal3T3Loop in practice.
    I know about 3Lz+3T and 3S+3T, but 3S+3Lo... when?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I know about 3Lz+3T and 3S+3T, but 3S+3Lo... when?
    2001 Skate America, but the loop would have been downgraded under IJS.

    As, indeed, would be true of many triple loop combinations before and since.

    Slutskaya did 3S+3Lo, 3T+3T, and 3Lz+3Lo in competition. I had seen her attempting 3Lo+3Lo in practice once, way back in 1995, but I don't think it was ready for competition yet and apparently never got there. She did do 3Lo+2Lo fairly often.
    Last edited by gkelly; 11-01-2012 at 10:55 AM.

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    Bonaly did 3T combos with the 3T, 3S, 3F, and 3Z. And a BF-3S combo

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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    Bonaly did 3T combos with the 3T, 3S, 3F, and 3Z. And a BF-3S combo
    Really? Can you post the link to the video? (I'm learning a lot of things with this thread!!)

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    Lipnitskaia at competitions jumps only 3T+3T and 3Lz+3T.
    At practice she jumps all combos with 3T and 3Lo as second jump.
    Once she skated FS at practice and landed 3F+3T instead of 3F+2T, i.e. third 3T.
    Eteri stopped her skating and not hearing Julia's "I only wanted to test can I do it" taught her "never, never, never!!! make invalid elements in program".

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    I know for sure that Midori Ito landed 3t-3t, 3lz-3t, and 3a-3t in competitions. I think she also landed 3loop-3loop in sp some times, but I don't remember exactly. She sure was a pioneer, and I've felt often sorry that figure skating back then wasn't really ready for her.

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    Elena Radionova lands 3Lz+3 and 3Lo+1Lo+3S (at Cup of Russia III she landed both in FS).
    Past season she landed 3Lo+3T in SP (solo 3Lz was needed in Junior SP that season).

    She also lands 3S+3T at practice and warm-up, being younger she made it at competitions.

    I believe, earlier she landed also 3T+3T (simplest 3+3), but I can not find so early protocols.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexRus View Post
    Elena Radionova lands 3Lz+3 and 3Lo+1Lo+3S (at Cup of Russia III she landed both in FS).
    Past season she landed 3Lo+3T in SP (solo 3Lz was needed in Junior SP that season).

    She also lands 3S+3T at practice and warm-up, being younger she made it at competitions.

    I believe, earlier she landed also 3T+3T (simplest 3+3), but I can not find so early protocols.
    This is getting nit-picky, but that's 3Lo-1/2 Lo- 3S. It has to be a 1/2 Loop to land on the proper foot for the Salchow takeoff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    This is getting nit-picky, but that's 3Lo-1/2 Lo- 3S. It has to be a 1/2 Loop to land on the proper foot for the Salchow takeoff.
    Yep. But for some reason, they just count it as a 1Lo on the protocol sheets. Anyone know why?

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    Gracie has landed the following this season:
    3F-3T (Skate Detroit SP)
    3Z-3T (Skate Detroit FS; Skate Detroit FS [final round]; SLC FS; Skate Canada FS)
    3F-1L(1/2L)-3S (Skate Detroit FS [Final round]; SLC FS)

    I hope she can land all three combos at the same competition.

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    I want to see a skater do a 3T or 3Z-2A combo (or is that humanly possible)?
    Actually I was thinking about this the other day (combos in general).
    I didn't know how frequently a skater performed either a loop, toe-loop or salchow as the second part of a combo (ie. which is the preferred attached jump on a combo).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Yep. But for some reason, they just count it as a 1Lo on the protocol sheets. Anyone know why?
    Because ISU solved so.
    It is made to have a wider variety of combos. 1Lo has low enough score (base 0.5), and it is called 1Lo to not make one more name and string in Scale of Values.

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    Also, there's a rule stating that jumps are called according to the takeoff, regardless of which foot they land on.

    There are two reasons why a jump might land on the "wrong" foot:

    1) It was a mistake -- she didn't get her weight positioned correctly in the air. In that case, she'll probably put her other foot down right away, and the judges will give the element negative GOEs.

    2) It was an intentional variation. This is usually only done with single jumps, and the two most common kinds have their own names: one-foot axel, and half-loop (which is closer to a full than a half rotation, with backward takeoff and backward landing). But the opposite foot landing could be chosen for any jump takeoff, usually as a connecting move for a single jump (waste of points in IJS where it will fill a jump box and count as a single jump) or else to set up a salchow or flip as a second or third (or later) jump in a combination or sequence.

    It is possible but quite difficult and therefore quite rare to land a double or triple jump on the opposite foot for these purposes. Although not common, the example I've seen more than once is one-foot double salchow, usually in combination with a regular double salchow following.

    Back in the 1980s and earlier, when jumping wasn't all about number of rotations in the air, some skaters would include these opposite-landing jumps for variety and originality. Into the 1990s we sometimes saw one-foot axel-triple salchow combinations.

    For Slowdive, the typical, most secure jump landing is the back outside edge that curves in the same direction as the jump rotation. For most skaters, who jump counterclockwise, this is the back outside edge on the right foot. From there, the possible jump takeoffs from the back outside edge are toe loop and loop. As FSGMT points out, toe loop combinations are easier in general, although some skaters prefer the loops.

    It's possible but less secure and harder to maintain flow and balance if you land the jump on the back inside edge of the other foot instead (left back inside for counterclockwise jumpers). For those who can do it, it's possible to put a salchow or flip as the next jump.

    To my knowledge, no one has ever done a opposite foot landing jump-salchow/flip combination in which both jumps were triples, and I can only think of one attempted example in which one of them was a triple. It's just that much harder to control the back inside landing to pull off such feats. Even double something-double sal/flip has been very rare.

    As I mentioned above, we have seen one-foot axel-triple salchow before IJS, but since it's much harder to do 1A+3S than it would be to do 3S+2T, but the point value would be lower under the current rules, it's not worth doing. I'd like to see the rules for scoring combos adjusted so that it would be, but I'm not holding my breath.

    What we have seen is skaters doing triple something-half loop-triple sal/flip. In that case the half loop serves mainly as a transition to get the skater onto the other foot for the salchow or flip takeoff. It was rare before IJS (not so rare at lower levels with double jumps). It continued to be rare at the beginning of IJS because at first the rules defined this kind of element as a jump sequence, worth only 80% of the value of the jumps. A couple years ago they redefined it so that something-half loop-something is considered a three-jump combination, with the half loop called as 1Lo. Now that it's worth more points, we're seeing them become a bit more common.

    It is not possible to do a combination with 2A as the second jump, because all correctly landed multiple-rotation jumps land on a backward edge (usually outside, rarely inside), and the axel takes off from a forward edge. There would need to be a turn in between, in most cases with a step to the other foot, which makes it a jump sequence and not a true combination. We have indeed seen skaters do triple something-double axel sequences, probably more often under IJS than before, especially ladies who are trying to get in as many triples as they can fit into the 7 allowed jump passes and who are still required to do an axel jump as well.

    And you didn't ask about lutzes, but don't expect to see those at the end of combinations either, since they take off from an edge that's traveling in the opposite direction from the jump rotation and landing. The only ways to put a lutz on the end of another jump would be
    1) put a change of edge in between, which would invalidate it as a combination under the current definitions (not sure whether that would be called as a sequence worth only 80% or as two separate jumps taking up two jump slots), or
    2) rotate one of the jumps, either the first one which could be any kind or a lutz as the second jump) in the opposite direction (very very difficult with double jumps, even moreso with triples) but not worth any more than a normal combination according to the rules and therefore not worth trying. I don't expect to see that with triples in our lifetime, and with doubles only if the rules change to give extra credit for jumping both directions.

    There's more to say about listed vs. unlisted jumps and how the half loop is sort of a special case, but it's not directly relevant to this thread.

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