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Thread: 2012 Cup of China Free Dance

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skater Boy View Post
    I agree. But I have to say I just don't get P and B; I don't think the gap should be widening between them and B and S. They are competent but not inspiring like and P or B and S. In other years they would have been like that Israeli team should have taken their medal and run. I know some people love them but I think they are overmarked and the programs are meh.
    I'm with you re: P/B - definitely overmarked. Their SD ok, their FD sloppy, music didn't work for them and I too don't understand why they are moving up. Yes, hope they burned that those stupid Mummy costumes! W/P's FD was weak and they seem to have stalled thus far. I think their music might be dynamic enough. B/S really improved but not completely connected to their music. Interesting year ahead for sure.

  2. #47
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    P/B...please, oh please, have someone change her costume. She looks like a hippie aerobics instructor. And maybe it's me, but it always feels like the French just don't get rock (unlike traditional jazz, which they get in spades. YMMV about this--of course!). Some nice lifts, but they did all seem a bit labored, no?

    C/B on the other hand impressed the hell out of me. Best spins of the season (for me) so far. They still need polish, but they have that "connection" D/W have been chasing after. Drama without the trauma (and yes, I'm looking at you, B/S...).

  3. #48
    Rinkside Sea Shells's Avatar
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    Hi all, sorry if this has been asked before. Couldn't find it in search.

    Just watched Weaver & Poje FD (w/o English dialogue).....I thought they were superb. What was the music they were skating to, and who is their coach?



  4. #49
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    From their ISU bio, their FD is to "Humanity in Motion" by Nathan Lanier. Their coaching team is


    Coach:
    P. Camerlengo, A. Krylova, S. Bourne

    Choreographer:
    Pasquale Camerlengo, A Krylova, Allison Holker

    Former Coach:
    Matthews Gates, Paul McIntosh
    S. Bourne is Shae Lynn Bourne

    Both were coached by Paul McIntosh, prior to Andrew & Kaitlyn moving to their current coaches. Kaitlyn was coached by Matthew Gates when she skated in the US with Charles Clavey.
    Kaitlyn & Andrew's bio
    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00009841.htm
    Kaitlyn & Charles Clavey's bio
    http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00008770.htm

    Andrew was coached by Paul Macintosh when skating with his former partners in Canada, Alexandra Nino and Alice Graham.

  5. #50
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    I love P/B and their wacky costumes. If Nathalie ever goes for the Disney princess look, I'll be really disappointed.

    I'm happy for B/S, who seem to be on the right track. Though I hope their real breakthrough will come post-Olympics...

  6. #51
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I love P/B and their wacky costumes. If Nathalie ever goes for the Disney princess look, I'll be really disappointed.

    I'm happy for B/S, who seem to be on the right track. Though I hope their real breakthrough will come post-Olympics...
    Well Zhulin did say that his goal for BS is really 2018 - I think that that's good because it means that he won't take any short cuts with them that may lead to better results at first but ultimately limit their potential (kind of like Kustarova's method of gaining speed by telling Ekaterina to bend her back more)

  7. #52
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    I'm trying to understand why W/P spin received just level 2: the requirements for Level 3 are:
    OPTION 1
    3 different Difficult Variations from 3
    different Basic Positions (3 by same
    partner or 2 by one partner and 1 for
    the other partner): each Difficult
    Variation for at least 3 rotations
    OPTION 2
    2 different Difficult Variations from 2
    different Basic Positions (2 by same
    partner or 1 by one partner and 1 by
    the other partner): each Difficult
    Variation for at least 3 rotations
    I think they performed correctly the first option: Kaetlyn did 2 difficult variations in sit and upright position, Andrew did it in the sit position... I'm not an English native speaker, so I maybe misunderstood the rules: does it mean that there must be a difficult variation also in the camel position? So, if Andrew performed a difficult variation in the camel position, they would have recived a level 3?

  8. #53
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Anyone else think that the reason WP are getting level 2 is that they come apart for a good amount of time between the spin?

  9. #54
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I love P/B and their wacky costumes. If Nathalie ever goes for the Disney princess look, I'll be really disappointed.

    I'm happy for B/S, who seem to be on the right track. Though I hope their real breakthrough will come post-Olympics...
    This! Congrats to P/B I loved both of their programs and costumes!

  10. #55
    Custom Title FSGMT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macassar88 View Post
    Anyone else think that the reason WP are getting level 2 is that they come apart for a good amount of time between the spin?
    No, this shouldn't affect the level, a lot of skaters do other movements in the middle of the spin and receive level 4 (Chock-Bates, for example: she performs a sit position between the two sections of the spin)...

  11. #56
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    Doris, this question is for you because you are so knowledgeable and unbiased. Can you explain why P&B are 10 points ahead of the next 2 teams in the Free Dance? I have watched their videos and from the untrained eye P&B don't look as neat and their edges don't seem any deeper. Is it their speed or is their program that much more difficult? Can you enlighten me? Thanks!!

  12. #57
    Huge Scott Moir Fan Macassar88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcr View Post
    Doris, this question is for you because you are so knowledgeable and unbiased. Can you explain why P&B are 10 points ahead of the next 2 teams in the Free Dance? I have watched their videos and from the untrained eye P&B don't look as neat and their edges don't seem any deeper. Is it their speed or is their program that much more difficult? Can you enlighten me? Thanks!!
    I'm not Doris, but I'll try to explain their lead
    First of all, they had a 5 point lead on Bobrova and Soloviev, but the bulk of that was actually from levels. Bobrova and Soloviev had 3 points less base value because they got two level 2 footwork sequences while Pechalat and Bourzat got level 3's.

    As for the other ~2 points, they were around 2 points ahead in program components (they beat BS in all of them) and had around a point more in GOE but lost a point with an extended lift.

    As for whether you believe that the scores that both teams got were justified or not, here are the protocols:
    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FD_Scores.pdf

    Even though I prefer BS's FD, I do think that PB are better skaters and deserved to win.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    P/B...please, oh please, have someone change her costume. She looks like a hippie aerobics instructor. And maybe it's me, but it always feels like the French just don't get rock (unlike traditional jazz, which they get in spades. YMMV about this--of course!). Some nice lifts, but they did all seem a bit labored, no?

    C/B on the other hand impressed the hell out of me. Best spins of the season (for me) so far. They still need polish, but they have that "connection" D/W have been chasing after. Drama without the trauma (and yes, I'm looking at you, B/S...).
    LOL, WeakAnkles! I so agree about the B/P costume -- the hippie get up was ridiculous. I had the same thought about the French & rock ... Mick Jagger would cringe. I do think B/P deserved to win on the day, but only by a mark or two.

  14. #59
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Because the rules haven't changed, this article is still valid:
    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...ce-Dance-Spins

    I'm sorry I didn't get earlier on questions; first I had to check any rule updates. For spins, the only 2 things that are new are the addition of a scored choreographic spin (not applicable) and a clarification question about whether the Biellmann position is OK as a difficult upright spin element if the foot is far from the head. (It is, and a number of Russian teams are using this variant this year).

    So first as to W&P's Spin. Here it is. Since it failed to get level 3, what we need to look at are the requirements for level 3, which they failed to get, and Level 2, at which they succeeded:
    The spin:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...U4ZU30Ts#t=55s

    Of course the spin was designed for level 4. (All spins at the elite level are)

    Because they use a change of foot, it is called a Combination Spin rather than a Spin. And if you watch, you will see that all the rotations are in the same direction. This makes it an Option 1 Combination Spin. They got some credit for the second half of the spin, because if the break in handhold totally invalidated the second part of the spin, it would have been called as a Spin, not a Combination Spin. However, they can lose a level if they are separated more than 1/2 rotation-and they rotate separately there, so I do think they did lose a level for that. (This does not affect the Chock/Bates spin, because there is no rotation going on during that change).

    Consequently, there must be problems with at least one of their basic positions as well.

    To obtain Level 3,

    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner performed simultaneously):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 5 rotations.

    OR

    3 different Difficult Variations from 3 different Basic Positions (3 by same partner or 2 by one partner and 1 by the other partner):
    each Difficult Variation for at least 2 rotations.
    For Level 2, Option 1

    OPTION 1
    2 different Difficult Variations from 2 different Basic Positions (2 by same partner or 1 by one partner and 1 by the other partner): each Difficult Variation for at least 3 rotations


    Looking at the first half of the spin, Kaitlyn is doing a sit position,

    If the angle between the thigh and shin of the skating leg is less than about 120 degrees, the
    position shall be considered as a Sit Position.
    and the difficult position she is attempting is:

    e) Free leg crossed behind and touching the skating leg, with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;
    .
    And if you check out her skating leg, it is at no time close to parallel to the ice.
    Andrew is doing a camel spin without variations, which is considered a difficult variation for the guy (but not the girl) They certainly get three rotations, but not 5 in the camel position.

    Looking at the second half of the spin, they get about 6 rotations. Kaitlyn is in a layback (which is considered a difficult upright position), and Andrew is in a sitspin. The difficult position he is attempting is:

    a) Free leg bent or straight directed forward with thigh of skating leg at least parallel to the ice;
    .
    There can be adjustments to levels. One possibility to look at here:

    1 ...

    �� both partners not holding on to each other, for up to half a rotation, and the Dance Spin continues according to Dance Spin requirements after the mistake, the Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per mistake. But if the mistake lasts for more than half a rotation, this shall be considered as an interruption and additional principles of calling shall apply.

    Notes:

    �� this provision does not apply to staying on two feet during the change of foot in a Combination Spin. However, the
    Level shall be reduced by 1 Level per partner staying on two feet more than half a rotation;
    I doubt very much that Kaitlyn's first position is counted as a difficult sitspin, so the spin is at best level 3. However, Andrew's sitspin isn't as deep as it might be either, but I think his thigh is parallel to the ice. The camel and layback are OK; they get at least 3 rotations in good position on both of those.

    So I think they did lose a level for the separation while rotating, and another for Kaitlyn's sit spin.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-05-2012 at 04:32 AM.

  15. #60
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    There was 5 points differenece in the FD between B&S and P&B and about 7 points between W&P and P&B.

    As to B&S vs. P&B, Macassar88 has it about right. The rules do not care overly much about whether the audience enjoyed the dance or not. At the last 2 World Championships, the winning dance couple had the dance which was less popular with the audience.

    B&S gave away 3 points to P&B in base value alone in the FD, all of it in the step sequences. Furthermore, the judges as well as the tech panel were not that positive about the quality of both B&S's step sequences (and hence they lost GOE there, as well as a level each to P&B).

    I can certainly tell you from SKAM that B&S, while not slow, do not have Davis & White's speed, and D&W weren't at their very speediest there. That alone would drop B&S's PCS a bit, compared to P&B in skating skills. W&P are very fast in warm up but really slow down in the performance, so their speed is about the same as B&S's.

    Personally, I might have dinged P&B a bit in PCS this is a very open program. The judges didn't, though.

    As to W&P, they had one level 2 step, and the aforementioned disastrous spin, which is still not fixed since SKAM, so they lost an additional 0.5 in base value vs. B&S. And their twizzles were not as good as B&S's.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-05-2012 at 04:53 AM.

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