2012 Cup of China Ladies Long Program
- Thread starter Mao88
- Start date
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2012
Not landing her triple-triples or having them to begin with? Her PCS was ten points less than Mao's, which was where she lost significant ground, but she has time to improve.
Definitely doing the 3/3 - she could have maximized GOE on a 3/2 or 3 jump combo. Not 3/3 but 3/2/2 or 2/2/2. That is what Julia was doing as a junior and it was smart! She needs to go back to being smart! What skating world is her coach where the world champions are doing triple lutz triple toes the past few years.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2012
Is the triple lutz-triple toe not one of the hardest combinations around? I remember the Vancouver commentators saying that Yuna's attempt was the most difficult combo in the entire ladies' field, and that was with Mao's triple axels around.
It's interesting you mentioned doing doubles - Julia herself talked about it in her post-competition interview. She said her problem is that she isn't good at doing double jumps - they turn out strange when she does them and that was the reason she went for the triple at the end of both of her combos despite problems with the first jump. Very unusual.
No it is but it is very new to Julia and maybe she should have gone with what worked for her to consistently as a junor which was double axel triple toe double toe . She didn't do 3/3 as a junior and it was new for her as a senior and maybe because it is so rare she should have focused on what worked for her best not getting the biggest points which of course didn't work for her.
I was just thinking of her when she was a junior and it was all 2A+3T+2T and 2a+3T and there was no 3lz-3T and no 3/2/2 of any kind or 3/3.
In terms of difficulty, absolutely, Mao's beats Oksana's for sure. But most all step sequences under 6.0 look very simple compared to the step sequences under the standards of CoP, and I prefer many step sequences under 6.0 because they're not overly long and didn't dragg on and actually have a pattern, and they match the music.
Quite right, thanks for the correction. The Swan has influenced so many modern interpretations of Odette and Swan Lake that the two are often linked in my mind. I love the contrast of Oksana's EX in white versus the image of her SP Black Swan; even though technically she's not the White Swan, since it's not Swan Lake, it's so very easy to think of it as a White Swan performance.
By saying that Mao's win is "indisputable," actually, I don't think you ARE clearly respecting and recognizing the right of others to dispute Mao's win. By saying it's indisputable you're saying that people can't dispute it!
That was what really bothered me; as you can see, I did not challenge others who also felt Mao should've won and I clearly said I saw the argument for why Mao did win. Why accuse me of condescending when it was YOUR post that declared Mao's win indisputable? I'm just disputing your statement when you said it's indisputable. I see. I thought you meant her going for 3Lz2T instead of 3Lz3T, but I see what you mean now. I guess her 3Lz3T was solid enough in practice that they included it into the programs. Her coach mentioned that Julia was doing this combo in practice already last season, but they didn't want to do it in competitions yet. Maybe they thought she'll need a harder combo even to compete within Russia as both Adelina and Liza were doing difficult triple-triples last year. Also, doing 3Lz3T in SP allowed her to be in first after the short program here.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2012
By saying that Mao's win is "indisputable," actually, I don't think you ARE clearly respecting and recognizing the right of others to dispute Mao's win. By saying it's indisputable you're saying that people can't dispute it!
I won't sit here and argue semantics with you just because I failed to add an "I think" in front of my post. In my opinion, Mao's win is indisputable, just as in my opinion, Kaetlyn Osmond should not have won Skate Canada over Akiko Suzuki. I do not think, personally, that there is anything worth disputing about Mao's win because it seemed clear to me that she skated the better program, but that doesn't mean that I'm knocking down those who want to or even getting involved in the technical mumbo-jumbo! Tell me, did I--at any point--shut anyone down for suggesting a different viewpoint? Did I pick arguments with those who are championing Julia or another skater? No--the only debates I participated in were those defending the dignity of the skaters themselves, and those considering the elements in Julia and Mao's programs. I accused you of condescending for the same reason you accused me of disrespecting the rights of others to have opinions--a simple issue of the semantics in your post. In fact, at this point, I think you're the one disrespecting my right to post my opinions, all because the diction was easily misunderstood and you felt it was necessary to attack me outright rather than clarify my meaning first.
Last edited:
I can see how going for the lutz toe combo can also be for competition in Russia as well getting it for international events. Even if she did what was usual for SPs last season which was 3t+3t she probably wouldn't have beaten Mao in the SP. But as a junior she switched from 3/3 in the SP to no 3/3 in the FS. The coach thinks she needs 3lz 3toe as a senior I guess and no going back.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2012
I think that Julia does need the triple-triple, since it can get massive marks if done cleanly and maybe compensate for her shortcomings in the PCS. Just to use a few examples--Elizaveta, Gracie, and Adelina are all attempting triple-triples in their programs this season. Gracie has had them up and running since her junior competitions. I've seen Julia land the triple-triple (she did so at the Finlandia Trophy), so she is definitely capable of doing so. It seems to me that she had the same issue with nerves that a lot of the other teenagers have been having.
It was not an attack, and I'm sorry you feel that way. You stated your opinion; I disagreed with your stated opinion. I think a lack of understanding of meaning is happening on your side as well as my own, so perhaps we can leave it there.
Getting back on topic, I think Julia will be fine. A silver in her senior debut is great, and I am impressed with the fact that she upgraded her combos in the SP and FS to harder ones this season. She's one of the few skaters to do so. There are valid concerns about the height of her jumps, especially her axel, but it's too soon to predict what will happen there. She, Adelina, and Elizaveta are certainly formidable competitors, and it's really exciting watching them compete and grow and develop as skaters.
If Julia has low jumps now, at 14, what will happen to her jumps when she grows/fills out? She gets little flowout from her jumps now, and that cuts down on her ice coverage. If and when she hits that leggy coltish stage, I can see that she may have a real problem adjusting.
It was done in Finlandia so she can do it and only doing it will make it consistent maybe for the next GP but her PCS is not likely to improve and she may face better skaters with better PCS AND better jumps than Mao. So they really need to be good - perfect in a every way because everyone knows what kind of jumps she can lose a competition to if she is not flawless and perfection would be the only way to beat Wagner or Gao or Tuktamisheva.
Too bad at the latter twos seasons so far. The post below ties into this!
Maybe she will stop doing singles and join Russian growing synchro program!?! Or she'll stop skating! Or she'll just word hard to keep the jumps and be successful or be a Caroline Zhang for 2 or 3 years! Maybe she'll be Ksenia Doronina or like a Sokolova? It can go so many ways! Not all doom and gloom is ahead.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2011
chuckm said:
That's pretty much what I thought too... although I don't think all of her jumps might be trouble. Her 3T is really good, she gets good spring into it - the only thing I'm wondering about is that tiny 2A. It's just a wait and see thing, I don't think Julia will completly lose her jumps or something, just that she will need some time getting used to body changes like a lot of skaters have. All of these discussions about body type and how unlikely it was for her to change much didn't stop Liza from growing out (although with that jumping technique, I'm not worried for Liza at all!).
And to be fair, while Julia never has good flow out of most of her jumps, it was really not her day at CoC. It's rather remarkable how she still landed everything.
On the other hand, I found a blog post where the writer was kind of complaining about Julia having pre-rotations on her 3Lz and 3F. Now I'm far from being an expert, but things like that don't make her technique look better to me at all.
Sotnikova has always had big jumps, and even she has had trouble adjusting to longer legs and a filled-out body. When a skater has tiny jumps to begin with, I can foresee falls and double-footed jumps. Yes, Julia's 3t is bigger than her other jumps, but she can't do more than two combinations with 3t, and the first jump has to get off the ice.
As it is, looking at the protocol, Julia gets -GOE on many of her jumps, and even on the ones with +GOE, she mostly gets 0s and 1s, because the jumps are small and/or the flowout and ice coverage just isn't there.
As it is, looking at the protocol, Julia gets -GOE on many of her jumps, and even on the ones with +GOE, she mostly gets 0s and 1s, because the jumps are small and/or the flowout and ice coverage just isn't there.
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2012
Yes, it's sad beacuse she reminds me of C. Zhang: bad technique (especially in axel and lutz/flip), tiny body... I'm not saying this WILL happen, but just that she MIGHT lose some of them or become less constant in landing them... Yes, I'm not really worried about Liza growing: her technique (especially in the lutz) is almost perfect, so her problems should be temporary!
Even when zhang did well she had the worst mule kick! I didn't see that from Julia at all. I don't thinks it's a guarantee that she will have a mule kick or lose all her jumps which is the consensus here. I think the 2014-2018 quad is where she will do well if she is not Zhang 2 mule kick.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2012
Really not sure about Julia v. Gao...I couldn't say who's the better skater, but in any competition, I feel that Julia would triumph simply due to consistency and her "wow-factor" as a fourteen-year-old starlet with crazy flexibility. Gao can be very artistic when she skates cleanly, but she hasn't exactly wowed the community during her career...her SA silver finish was a huge shock, and partly due to Sotnikova's flubs. Wagner also trounced her score by >14 points with an imperfect program, whereas we've never seen Gao skate better.
Tuktamisheva is having issues with puberty and injury, according to Mishin. She's noticeably gained weight since last season and we've only seen her at SC so far, where she placed fourth. I'm worried about how her filling-out will affect her jumps and overall energy. It's a very stressful time for a young girl.
Similar threads
