2012 Cup of China Ladies Long Program

[ForeverFish]

Her streak last season was all against juniors and that is becoming very clear was only because it was juniors. Look what happened under scrutiny of a senior gp event really disgusting comments and criticism came! I was so taken aback I repeated them for effect!!

And for what effect, may I ask? To demonstrate that you, too, can add shock value to your comments?

Please see my comment above regarding what I think of the view that Lipnitskaia will be utterly crushed by the senior ladies.

[Reginald]

I was just saying that I do not think that it is a good thing that Julia Lipnitskaya won silver. You should never want the silver medal over the gold medal.

[ForeverFish]

Really, why should anyone care that much about who wins Cup of China (except the skaters themselves, I suppose)? It's not exactly something to have a parade over. Even winning the Grand Prix final doesn't count for much in the record books. Worlds is the big show (and the Olympics, of course, in those years). Julia isn't even old enough for Worlds this year, is she? Mao won't win Worlds with only three clean triples. But I expect her jump content to improve by the time she gets to Worlds.

No, Julia doesn't yet meet the age requirement for Worlds, unfortunately. I agree with you on all counts, but even with her legendary triple axel, it'll still be an uphill struggle for Mao with Wagner and the Russian girls fighting to get on the podium. She's finished sixth two seasons in a row, and the competition isn't getting any easier. If you look at the detailed judges' scores for Mao and Julia at CoC, you'll see that Julia's EE was higher. Where she lost significant ground was in her PCS.

[ForeverFish]

I was just saying that I do not think that it is a good thing that Julia Lipnitskaya won silver. You should never want the silver medal over the gold medal.

Well, of course not, especially not someone of her toughness and potential. I simply disagree with the implication that one GP (and, as jenaj said, not a significant competition) has crushed her chances at ever winning another gold medal.

[evangeline]

This thread is just

[ForeverFish]

This thread is just

I won't lie--I'm having fun, too.

[naan]

Oh my, the debate is still going on

I rewatched Mao and Julia's programs in HD.
I'm OK with Julia's PCS. Surely she is good at jumps and spins, but that's it. No transitions, no choreography, no interpretation. Not much speed and ice coverage. She's not mature yet, and skates like junior.
(But she has a potential. Considering her age, she's sooooo great!)

I think Mao was little overmarked on PCS. I would give her 62-63. Akiko was better than Mao, but she only got 59.82 at Skate Canada. (Her TES was 60.22 )
Mao was more mature, expressive than Julia. Her SS was fab. But she was cautious, didn't feel the music. Nothing special besides stroking and arm flapping before the step sequence.

In conclusion, Mao deserves to win even if she was little gifted on PCS. Her jump content was terrible as gmyers said, but overall her other elements and qualities were better than Julia, so could win this competition.

I understand what you're saying, gmyers! But Mao could win because COC was a weak field. I'm sure nobody can win Worlds or Olympic with two kinds of easy triples and without 3-3, 3Lz, and 3F. Mao knows it, and she'll try her best to improve her jumps. Let's wait and see!

[prettykeys]

Don't get the outrage. Mao was the best yesterday. Julia suffered from skating right after Mao. I was in the arena and even Julia's dress looked ridiculous/cheap after Mao skated. Julia's program just wasn't up to the aesthetic level and lightness Mao's was. I thought if she had skated a few people before Mao she probably would have scored a little better.

I completely agree, although I would have left out the rather harsh comment about the costume. From the first couple strokes of her LP, Mao's superior qualities as a skater are very clear and her costume was, indeed, gorgeous. She is naturally suited to being the White Swan. The step sequence towards the end was stupendous. I agree with those who say the SP is a bit tacky for her at this point in time (Lori Nichol, what? ), but on the basis on the LP Mao deserved to win here.

I wasn't impressed with Lipnitskaia. Her skating is very herky-jerky: she lands her small jumps, but there isn't much flowout from them. She doesn't seem to have any relationship with the music. She does all the choreographic touches that were given to her, but they were often not exactly where they should have been with the music. And there was entirely too much leg-grabbing. Yes, Julia, we know you are very bendy, but feats of flexibility by themselves don't express the character of the music.

Her annoyance in the KnC at not winning the competition can be forgiven because she is only 14 years old. But she should recognize that she is now skating against senior women. Maybe Mao Asada didn't have the technical chops Julia had, but she skated smoothly, lightly and with feeling so that the whole was worth far more than the sum of its parts. Julia's whole was considerably less than Mao's----that's why Mao won.

Agreed. Julia should not be too upset. She is an amazing young skater and she will get better. But without her usual jumps, her LP fell flat.

I know that others explained the interview/translation provided by AlexRus as being inaccurate/incomplete, but it is obvious here that she was nervous (for good reason). Now she may have a better understanding of the things she can work on, and yay, we get to look forward to her progress.

[babayaga]

From what I've read about Julia Lipnitskaya, I have very high opinion about her as a fighter. I have no doubt she will learn from this experience as much as possible and will keep working very hard on her SS and other PCS components. She herself doesn't seem like someone who will blame the judges or the system or anything else. She wants to be a skater who no-one can beat and I love that about her. If her jumps stay with her, we might see a very much improved Julia next year. But for now, I am thrilled for Mao Love her Swan Lake, so gorgeous.

[gmyers]

Had Julia landed her triple-triple combinations clean, I believe she would, indeed, have beat Mao. The difference between them was 3.47 points, not the titanic margin you're making it out to be. Let me reiterate that she is fourteen, and your example of the great skaters--Kostner, Mao, and Kim--are already in their twenties. Might be that they have one Olympics left in them, but after that, they'll be on their way out. And who will be standing there, already posing a huge threat to Mao at her first senior GP before she's come anywhere close to peaking? Julia. You've still failed to convince me that her career is essentially over after her first big senior event because she took silverat an event that--had she skated cleanly, like her short program--she would have won. By that stretch of "logic," no skater has ever become great because a career of nothing but golds has yet to happen.

Let's use your examples to illustrate this--Mao lost to Yuna in Vancouver, took sixth at two World Championships in a row, and placed fifth and eighth at her GP assignments for the 10-11 season. Kostner placed sixteenth at the Vancouver Olympics, sixth at 09-10 Worlds, sixth at both of her GP events the same season, and dared to take silver at both of her GPs last season. Not even the great Kim Yuna will ever, it seems, win anything again because she has settled for silver and bronze at multiple points during her career.

I am also thinking not only if Julia had been clean she would have won against the mao that skated but if Mao had been clean she have blown the clean Julia away!!! These what if things can go either way or any way you want them to! If Mao had rotated even one of her flips she would have had an even bigger margin! So there is just no end to hypotheticals! In a post mao, yuna, carolina etc era beginning in april 2014 of course it could be all different so I think this definitely puts an end to the idea that Julia could medal or be a contender at the 2014 olympics because its so obvious so many more poeple will be there and doing more than loops and salchows with great PCS and all things.

Really, why should anyone care that much about who wins Cup of China (except the skaters themselves, I suppose)? It's not exactly something to have a parade over. Even winning the Grand Prix final doesn't count for much in the record books. Worlds is the big show (and the Olympics, of course, in those years). Julia isn't even old enough for Worlds this year, is she? Mao won't win Worlds with only three clean triples. But I expect her jump content to improve by the time she gets to Worlds.

Mao's win is such a continuation of what happened at 2012 worlds with Kostner winning! She did a flip as her hardest jump. It's always just one competition until it is many than a season worths and then a worlds and an Olympics

And for what effect, may I ask? To demonstrate that you, too, can add shock value to your comments?

Please see my comment above regarding what I think of the view that Lipnitskaia will be utterly crushed by the senior ladies.

If she was defeated by Mao by a good margin - worlds margins can be .04 so mao was a landslide- kostner yuna etc are all virtually unbeatable

Oh my, the debate is still going on

I rewatched Mao and Julia's programs in HD.
I'm OK with Julia's PCS. Surely she is good at jumps and spins, but that's it. No transitions, no choreography, no interpretation. Not much speed and ice coverage. She's not mature yet, and skates like junior.
(But she has a potential. Considering her age, she's sooooo great!)

I think Mao was little overmarked on PCS. I would give her 62-63. Akiko was better than Mao, but she only got 59.82 at Skate Canada. (Her TES was 60.22 )
Mao was more mature, expressive than Julia. Her SS was fab. But she was cautious, didn't feel the music. Nothing special besides stroking and arm flapping before the step sequence.

In conclusion, Mao deserves to win even if she was little gifted on PCS. Her jump content was terrible as gmyers said, but overall her other elements and qualities were better than Julia, so could win this competition.

I understand what you're saying, gmyers! But Mao could win because COC was a weak field. I'm sure nobody can win Worlds or Olympic with two kinds of easy triples and without 3-3, 3Lz, and 3F. Mao knows it, and she'll try her best to improve her jumps. Let's wait and see!

Not sure about the bolded at all! Because if there is no fall or single jumps and great PCS like Mao in COC how can there not be victory at a worlds with such content. This is almost a total descrption of Kostner at 2012 worlds! Kostner had no lutz so that's not debateable. But then her 3 toe 3 toe was in the SP with her double loop and 2A so Kostner thrid place at worlds in the SP was a triple toe basically as most difficult jump. And in the free skate one completed flip as the hardest with no 3/3 and double flip. That was a landslide victory in the free! 7 points! She won so easy in Nice. Even with that SP with the 3/3 but two doubles. So Mao doesn't really increase her jump content that much at all.

[uncchristine99]

Love Mao's swan dress and thought she was deservedly 1st. What a contrast from her short program, which is so underwhelming. The 2nd half of her LP was the best--so much energy and attack. The first half was definitely very emo and felt too drawn out. Excited to see this develop as the season goes though.

[jaylee]

Regardless of which skater you like better, Mao is the undisputed champion here.

For what it's worth, the British Eurosport commentators thought Julia deserved the win. Mao did win. That doesn't mean her win is undisputed, just because you say so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...cWl6CqQ#t=345s

Regardless of whom you think should've won, I think folks have a right to dispute it here. (After all, this is a forum that allowed a thread to be started that said, "Should the ISU carry out an Inquiry into the outcome of the Ladies FS at Skate Canada?" Or is it only okay for people to dispute victories that you also dispute?) I actually very much see that there's a good argument for why Mao won. But there's also a reasonable argument for why Julia should've won. Sometimes the gap in the technical elements executed is such that superior presentation/skating skills should not compensate to give the weaker technical skater the win.

From the first couple strokes of her LP, Mao's superior qualities as a skater are very clear and her costume was, indeed, gorgeous. She is naturally suited to being the White Swan. The step sequence towards the end was stupendous. I agree with those who say the SP is a bit tacky for her at this point in time (Lori Nichol, what? ), but on the basis on the LP Mao deserved to win here.

I can't resist commenting here, because of your comment that I highlighted in bold. Debate about whether Mao deserved to win aside (I'm truthfully not interested in that argument, just in defending the right of some to participate in that debate), I find it interesting that you say that Mao is perfectly suited to being the White Swan, because a good chunk of her music is actually the Black Swan's, including the climactic last minute with the footwork sequence. Yet there's nothing that stood out to me as Black Swan-ish about her interpretation. (And I suspect that Tarasova cribbed a bit from Oksana Baiul's SP or was at least inspired by it, because both programs have footwork sequences that start with the exact same music from the Black Swan pas de deux coda.)

I watched Mao's FS, both of Oksana Baiul's Swan Lake programs (1994 SP and EX), and Sasha Cohen's Swan Lake FS back to back. To me, Mao's performance felt the weakest portrayal of the White or Black Swan, but that's just me. My perception could have been affected by her poor jumping performance, but I doubt it--there is just a lack of unique choreographed movements outside of the footwork (and Oksana's footwork is better in that regard). Maybe that's a debate for another thread, though...battle of the Swan Lakes.

[evangeline]

I watched Mao's FS, both of Oksana Baiul's Swan Lake programs (1994 SP and EX), and Sasha Cohen's Swan Lake FS back to back. To me, Mao's performance felt the weakest portrayal of the White or Black Swan, but that's just me. My perception could have been affected by her poor jumping performance, but I doubt it--there is just a lack of unique choreographed movements outside of the footwork (and Oksana's footwork is better in that regard). Maybe that's a debate for another thread, though...battle of the Swan Lakes.

I LOVE Oksana's Swan Lake SP (one of my all-time favourites), but if we're talking about footwork here, Oksana's steps in that SP are much too simple to be considered a "step sequence" under the standards of CoP today. Even by 94 standards her footwork was quite weak...wasn't her step sequence basically all 3-turns in a single direction?

[Puchi]

I watched Mao's FS, both of Oksana Baiul's Swan Lake programs (1994 SP and EX)

Oksana Baiul's 1994 EX was not to Swan Lake, it was "The Swan" by Camille Saint-Saëns

[ForeverFish]

For what it's worth, the British Eurosport commentators thought Julia deserved the win. Mao did win. That doesn't mean her win is undisputed, just because you say so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...cWl6CqQ#t=345s

Regardless of whom you think should've won, I think folks have a right to dispute it here. (After all, this is a forum that allowed a thread to be started that said, "Should the ISU carry out an Inquiry into the outcome of the Ladies FS at Skate Canada?" Or is it only okay for people to dispute victories that you also dispute?) I actually very much see that there's a good argument for why Mao won. But there's also a reasonable argument for why Julia should've won. Sometimes the gap in the technical elements executed is such that superior presentation/skating skills should not compensate to give the weaker technical skater the win.

I clearly respect and recognize the right of others to dispute Mao's win, since that's what makes this forum such a lively and interesting place. It is my personal (and strong) opinion that Julia yielded her lead by flubbing her triple-triples, and I disagree with those who say she skated better than Mao, but as they say, ice is slippery and, believe it or not, this is not the first time that I have disagreed with others. Do not attempt to condescend or put words in my mouth--I never, ever suggested that it is "only okay for people to dispute victories that [I] also dispute." At no point did I ever express that my opinion was the final word or that I would attempt to bar others from giving their own two cents. My quarrels with the commenters on this thread and topic are mainly due to blatant disrespect of the skaters, as when several individuals referred to Julia in degrading and inappropriate ways that upset me. You will also find that I commented several times regarding whether or not Osmond's win should be investigated by the ISU, in what I hope was a civil way.