2012 Cup of China Pairs Long Program

[FlattFan]

Don't understand all the hating towards K/S. Granted they had some problems yesterday but they are more than capable of getting a world and olympic podium. I really enjoyed yesterdays performance, it had a lyrical style and built to a nice finish, there is no doubt they have improved since 2010. It's a real disappointment that there Clare de lune programme never received a worlds medal but errors they made in the short in both years cost them.

Of course they are capable of getting a world and olympic medal. The requirement for that is one of the top 3 messed up badly.
Say, P/T and V/T skate the skate of their lives. S/S mess up, K/S skate clean. K/S would be in 4th. Just like in Euro 2011, where their clean skate couldn't beat S/S's messy skate where the girl S was just standing around picking her nose for the entire spin.

If all skate clean, they aren't going to be anywhere near the podium.

Had they delivered in 2010, their PCS would not suffer so much.

[mikiandorocks]

Looking at the TES from P&T Fs it looks like the pair spin was considered as an invalid element. Does anybody have a clue why?

[mousepotato]

Well, you appeared to be more delusional than usual.
K/S hasn't gotten the kind of PCS they did in 2010 despite having better programs since then. Even in 2011, they were clean and couldn't beat a flawed SS. No fed support, no bonus GOE, PCS.

And P/T were even closer to the podium than K/S last year. With all of their problems.

The point is this, if all skate clean, K/S would never be able to catch the top 3. And the top 3 have a record of skating clean at big events a few hundred percent more than K/S.

They had their chance and they blew it. Now, no matter what they do, they will never be good enough.

In your opinion they are better programs. Look at last years COR and see what PCS they got for that one.

Clean at 2011 Euros? Now I think you’re delusional or don’t know how judging works. I’m sure it’s a combination of the two.
Yuko tripped when her blade got stuck on the ice and that was in the first 2 seconds. His 3T was good but her landing wasn’t. Only a level 1 on the BoDS, sbs spins were perfect as usual. Axels were landed but bad from start to finish. The last lift was horrible (Smirnov blames the cold and not being able to feel his hands.) S/S performed really well with the most notable error were Aliona’s non-counted sbs spins; which only cost them about 4-4.50 points. They had that cushion of 2.82 from the sp. So even though K/S won the free by 0.23, they only lost the gold by 2.59 points. Not to mention that was after they both had surgery early in the year and it was only their 3rd competiton of the season. If only you held up the other teams to those high standards......

K/S had just as many problems in their free in 2012 as P/T or do only count how many times people fall? I see you use the word “clean” a lot and in judging it’s meaningless. P/T had their problems but Yuko under rotated her axel costing several points. A completely missed life costing at least 5 points not to mention low levels for the death spiral and pairs spins. K/S were only 7.28 points away from the bronze (and 3.64 away from beating P/T) which should have been doable but (for the 100th time) I’m sure his surgery was holding him back.

Also S/H also missed a 7+ lift and may have been on the podium had they hit.

Blew it in 2010?!? After only 3 years together I think you must be new to this sport if you think a team (especially with their backgrounds) can get on an Olympic podium in 3 years. You don’t ask that of any other team. Look at all the teams at the 2010 Olympics, should all the ones who finished 5th and lower (like B/L) quit because you think they will never do better? I really don’t think you do.

SS are worthy. They have big tricks and they delivered a few more times than K/S.
V/T are worthy. Although they are gross and get inexplicable PCS.
P/T are worthy. Haven't you seen their Olympics FS? That is something K/S would never be able to do.

You must have missed their 2010 winning program at Euros (a world record score at that.) P/T were behind K/S after the short program at the Olympics, K/S only being 2.50 points away from an OGM and if they would have performed as well as they did at Euros they would have been 2nd. BUT other teams needed K/S to mess up in order to make it on the podium, funny you don't seem to think it works both ways. BTW Yuko performed that free skate (after only being together for 3 years) with her shoulder dislocating during the program; yet they still managed to beat 16 other teams.

Even T/T are more worthy. They have equally gorgeous programs as K/S but they have better line, twist, upgrading their TES. Improving season by season.

You better be careful about what you say about T/T, they are over their 3 years mark and only have one World bronze (K/S have two) and T/T only have that because all the other teams messed up. As I said before if K/S didn’t have the fall (2 points) in the sp on a lift that cost them even more points they would have been on the podium, then add in the missed lift in the free, they would have easily been ahead of all those teams and on the podium. But he can be excused for that since 3 months earlier while everyone one else was competing and training, he was recovering from stomach surgery. They only had 13 days on the ice before Worlds. Other teams had to fail in order for T/T to win bronze, or did you forget that?

Had they delivered in 2010, their PCS would not suffer so much.

Please site many specific examples since 2009-2010 where their PSC score have dropped for no reason. For those who understand the criteria, their PCS look pretty good, I'm guessing you just don't understand what they look for.
Here are all their free skate PCS for 2009-2012

2009-2010
2009 COR 59.44
2009 NHK 61.76
2009 GPF 59.76
2010 Euros 69.92
2010 Olympics 64.48
2010 Worlds 67.27

2010-2011
2010 COR 64.76
2011 Euros 68.50
2011 Worlds 64.46

2011-2012
2011 COR 63.76
2011 NHK 61.36
2011 COR 66.97
2011 GPF 64.63
2012 Worlds 64.56

2012-2013
2012 COC 57.09

Where exactly have their PCS suffered where they have performed a great program and were “dumped?” I'm sure if you looked at other teams; the point spread would be the same.

FYI - S/S 2009-2010
TEB 57.28
SC 66.00
GPF 67.92
Euros 70.72
Olympics 70.56
Worlds 69.36

[FlattFan]

Clean at 2011 Euros? Now I think you’re delusional or don’t know how judging works. I’m sure it’s a combination of the two.
Yuko tripped when her blade got stuck on the ice and that was in the first 2 seconds. His 3T was good but her landing wasn’t. Only a level 1 on the BoDS, sbs spins were perfect as usual. Axels were landed but bad from start to finish. The last lift was horrible (Smirnov blames the cold and not being able to feel his hands.) S/S performed really well with the most notable error were Aliona’s non-counted sbs spins; which only cost them about 4-4.50 points. They had that cushion of 2.82 from the sp. So even though K/S won the free by 0.23, they only lost the gold by 2.59 points. Not to mention that was after they both had surgery early in the year and it was only their 3rd competiton of the season. If only you held up the other teams to those high standards......

Looks like you don't know reality. S/S doubled the SBS Salchow in the same competition as well. You conveniently forgot to include that, eh? With all of that problems, S/S still came out ahead on PCS.
Stop making those excuses, other people also had equally severe injuries. And they were able to pull themselves together.

K/S had just as many problems in their free in 2012 as P/T or do only count how many times people fall? I see you use the word “clean” a lot and in judging it’s meaningless. P/T had their problems but Yuko under rotated her axel costing several points. A completely missed life costing at least 5 points not to mention low levels for the death spiral and pairs spins. K/S were only 7.28 points away from the bronze (and 3.64 away from beating P/T) which should have been doable but (for the 100th time) I’m sure his surgery was holding him back.

As if P/T were young bucks, completely injuries-free. Excuses and excuses.

Blew it in 2010?!? After only 3 years together I think you must be new to this sport if you think a team (especially with their backgrounds) can get on an Olympic podium in 3 years. You don’t ask that of any other team. Look at all the teams at the 2010 Olympics, should all the ones who finished 5th and lower (like B/L) quit because you think they will never do better? I really don’t think you do.

Are you out of your mind? V/T got together and immediately became W medalists. You are comparing K/S to some junior team who just got together for 3 years? They were both experienced skaters, yes?
B/L should quit, B probably will break her twiggy legs before they reach the world podium. What makes you think I don't?

You must have missed their 2010 winning program at Euros (a world record score at that.) P/T were behind K/S after the short program at the Olympics, K/S only being 2.50 points away from an OGM and if they would have performed as well as they did at Euros they would have been 2nd. BUT other teams needed K/S to mess up in order to make it on the podium, funny you don't seem to think it works both ways. BTW Yuko performed that free skate (after only being together for 3 years) with her shoulder dislocating during the program; yet they still managed to beat 16 other teams.

She stepped out on her 3T. It wasn't a clean program. Then she missed 20 sec during the transition from Valse Sentimentale to the Blue Danube.
That was the time they got fed support. That explained their outrageous high PCS. The point, unfortunately went over your head, is this the judges were ready to throw them a bone at the 2010 Olympics. They blew it. They will never get that kind of PCS again.

You better be careful about what you say about T/T, they are over their 3 years mark and only have one World bronze (K/S have two) and T/T only have that because all the other teams messed up. As I said before if K/S didn’t have the fall (2 points) in the sp on a lift that cost them even more points they would have been on the podium, then add in the missed lift in the free, they would have easily been ahead of all those teams and on the podium. But he can be excused for that since 3 months earlier while everyone one else was competing and training, he was recovering from stomach surgery. They only had 13 days on the ice before Worlds. Other teams had to fail in order for T/T to win bronze, or did you forget that?

Again, T/T are 22. K/S are 30. Not the same. Logic failed you big time.
Had T/T skated clean, K/S would never catch them. Girl T double footed her 3Sal throw.
Don't care what surgeries they had, other teams had equally bad injuries.

Look at the big events
Highest PCS around 2010 were 69.92, 67.27.
After that point, even with clean skate, they can only hope for 64. Get a reality check, hon.

[gold12345]

The judges still like K/S plenty. They got credited with a level 3 triple twist when it was clearly a botched, underrotated element. The program is beautiful, but they really could have skated much better. I figured P/T would get held up in China though.

[mousepotato]

Looks like you don't know reality. S/S doubled the SBS Salchow in the same competition as well. You conveniently forgot to include that, eh? With all of that problems, S/S still came out ahead on PCS.

I said S/S performed VERY WELL, I didn’t say either team was mistake free.

Their mistakes were taken off in GOE not PCS, I’m not sure you know where deductions go which is why you are confused. S/S were ahead in PCS by 1.17. They were dinged a little in PE (K/S 8.64 to S/S 8.43) but the criteria was still met in the other areas in spite of a 2S and no spin.

Stop making those excuses, other people also had equally severe injuries. And they were able to pull themselves together.

As if P/T were young bucks, completely injuries-free. Excuses and excuses.

Equally? If you are referring to 2012 there was no one injured in Jan or Feb, especially one that would require surgery, hospitalization for a week and being off until right before Worlds. A sore back, hamstring, foot or groin are NOT the same thing as having a surgeon digging about in your stomach. He not only had appendicitis but they also fixed diverticulitis on the intestines. Aliona was only one who injured her knee/thigh doing the 3ATh right before the competition on January 12th. She continued to train for Euros, then got re-injured in England and decided to WD, but she was fine later and even did the throw at Worlds.

V/T 1ST Euros
T/T 6TH 4CC
P/T 1ST Asian Winter Games
D/R 5TH 4CC
B/L 2ND Euros
D/C 2ND 4CC
S/H 1ST 4CC
B/B 3RD 4CC
B/H 4TH Euros
D/W 8th 4CC

Robin is just as old as Tong and Kavaguti will be 31 in a few weeks, so your age theory doesn’t hold water.

Are you out of your mind? V/T got together and immediately became W medalists. You are comparing K/S to some junior team who just got together for 3 years? They were both experienced skaters, yes?
B/L should quit, B probably will break her twiggy legs before they reach the world podium. What makes you think I don't?

Now B/L should quit!?!

K/S weren’t even close to level V/T were at when they paired up, K/S, experienced skaters? Please. Volosozhar was at worlds 7 times before getting with Trankov (Smirnov-zero) finishing as high at 4th place. 2010 was also her second Olympics. Trankov had been with Mukhortova for seven years; they won Jr. Worlds and finished as high as 4th in the world and he was also at the Olympics. Yet you compare a team with that background with a team whose background was either non-existent or really poor. I’m sure it was just that you didn’t know the history of the teams.

Why not compare K/S to B/L? Alexander Smirnov WAS a junior before he paired up with Yuko in 2006 (B/L paired up in 2005.) I’m sure you didn’t realize that when you made the comment. Smirnov’s last partner was a former singles skater who’s very first partner was Smirnov. They only got as high as 6th at Jr. Worlds. Yuko and her first partner only got as high as 13th in the world, she took 12 months off and then with Devin Patrick got only as high as 15th at US Nationals. Smirnov’s first partner was another singles skaters who wanted to try pairs. They competed twice locally, then she move on. Two single skaters with no experience does not a highly trained Volosozhar make. Markuntsov and Patrick didn't exactly take Yuko to the Olympics or 4th place at worlds either.

Comparisons are only fair when they are equal. Yours was about as far from equal as you can get.

She stepped out on her 3T. It wasn't a clean program. Then she missed 20 sec during the transition from Valse Sentimentale to the Blue Danube.
That was the time they got fed support. That explained their outrageous high PCS. The point, unfortunately went over your head, is this the judges were ready to throw them a bone at the 2010 Olympics. They blew it. They will never get that kind of PCS again.

Clean

I was talking about the Olympics and P/T and obviously you are talking about Euros because Kavaguti didn’t step out on the 3T at the Olympics and her shoulder didn’t dislocate until she fell on the 3LoTh and it still only took her seconds to pop it into place before the lift.

She also didn’t miss 20 seconds of that program in Euros either; maybe 5 seconds at most to pop her shoulder back in, then they went on to execute two perfect sets of 2A. Aliona stepped out of her triple flip and almost fell, double a triple and their sbs spins were off. None of those errors by either team would have a big impact on PCS.

Again, T/T are 22. K/S are 30. Not the same. Logic failed you big time.
Had T/T skated clean, K/S would never catch them. Girl T double footed her 3Sal throw.
Don't care what surgeries they had, other teams had equally bad injuries.

Look at the big events
Highest PCS around 2010 were 69.92, 67.27.
After that point, even with clean skate, they can only hope for 64. Get a reality check, hon.

Clean

You have that backward, even if T/T had performed the same routine, everyone else performing better than they did, from 4th to 9th would have put T/T in about 7-9th place. They needed those errors, but I can see how your T/T love can cloud the scores of everyone else.

Where exactly have their PCS suffered where they have performed a great program and were “dumped?”

You didn’t give an answer to my question because one doesn’t exist.

Look at the big events
Highest PCS around 2010 were 69.92, 67.27.

So in other words, their two best events? Don’t even take into consideration how the PCS drop when they don’t perform well. Even S/S went from 57.28 to 70.72 but it requires someone to look at the whole PCS picture and understand what the numbers mean.

even with clean skate, they can only hope for 64. Get a reality check, hon.

Clean

Even in the 2011 EC with a errors in the free the managed 68.60 and at the Cup of Russia last season they got 66.97 so that blows your whole theory on never getting above 64 when errors still get them higher.

I think you need to visit the ISU website to get re-educated on the rules of the sport and how/where deductions are applied. If that isn’t a help to you, visit you local rink and ask for help there. Then go learn about the skaters you watch so when there is a discussion about them you know their background well enough to have a well thought out discussion.

[FlattFan]

I said S/S performed VERY WELL, I didn’t say either team was mistake free.

From the horse's mouth, S/S performed VERY WELL. Well,

Robin is just as old as Tong and Kavaguti will be 31 in a few weeks, so your age theory doesn’t hold water.

What theory? What are you talking about? I said they (P/T, S/S) were all old, with multiple injuries, and they got themselves together. So no excuse for K/S.

Now B/L should quit!?!

Yes, they should quit while she's still alive.

K/S weren’t even close to level V/T were at when they paired up, K/S, experienced skaters? Please. Volosozhar was at worlds 7 times before getting with Trankov (Smirnov-zero) finishing as high at 4th place. 2010 was also her second Olympics. Trankov had been with Mukhortova for seven years; they won Jr. Worlds and finished as high as 4th in the world and he was also at the Olympics. Yet you compare a team with that background with a team whose background was either non-existent or really poor. I’m sure it was just that you didn’t know the history of the teams.

Kawaguchi medaled at the jr. level. Wasn't new by any stretch of imagination. Old enough, trained way more than some junior kids from some sad farm in eastern euro. You continued to excuse their bad skating due to "only 3.5 years together" blah blah. Well, landing 3Ts at big events don't take 10 years together. Ok?
Who cares about Smirnov? He's terrible, and is lucky to get a good partner. Had he partnered up with Mukhortova, he wouldn't be able to afford protein shake. I'm sure you think you know what you're talking about. And the reality is about a throw length from where you think it is.

Why not compare K/S to B/L? Comparisons are only fair when they are equal. Yours was about as far from equal as you can get.

Are you serious? B/L are a bunch of losers. I'm comparing K/S to top tier teams only. Why would I compare K/S to B/L? You want to play with the big dogs, you better bark as loudly.

You have that backward, even if T/T had performed the same routine, everyone else performing better than they did, from 4th to 9th would have put T/T in about 7-9th place. They needed those errors, but I can see how your T/T love can cloud the scores of everyone else.

You are out of your mind, T/T could add another 1.3 to their Sal throw. Would give them 66.6+. Who would place ahead of them to keep them in about 7-9th place?

I think you need to visit the ISU website to get re-educated on the rules of the sport and how/where deductions are applied. If that isn’t a help to you, visit you local rink and ask for help there. Then go learn about the skaters you watch so when there is a discussion about them you know their background well enough to have a well thought out discussion.

You need a reality check.

[yqs100]

Of course they are capable of getting a world and olympic medal. The requirement for that is one of the top 3 messed up badly.
Say, P/T and V/T skate the skate of their lives. S/S mess up, K/S skate clean. K/S would be in 4th. Just like in Euro 2011, where their clean skate couldn't beat S/S's messy skate where the girl S was just standing around picking her nose for the entire spin.

If all skate clean, they aren't going to be anywhere near the podium.

Had they delivered in 2010, their PCS would not suffer so much.

now K/S are just paying back what they received before 2010, they were soooo overscored before 2010,,,especially in the 09-10 olympics season,,,

and I do wish Yuko San can show less arrogant and more smile in K&C,,, then they will win more fans