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Thread: Transitions and jump landings

  1. #16
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drivingmissdaisy View Post
    I also liked it when the edge was held before the lutz. It's not easy to do; Irina and Michelle both changed their lutzes to the abbreviated entrance. Michelle may or may not have done it to improve her consistency, but Irina was definitely more successful with the shortened entry.
    Michelle may have done it to guard against a flutz.

    Long take-off edge.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okPRcajUQrM#t=0m40s

    Short take-off edge:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns#t=3m57s

  2. #17
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    How many different ways can one skater get into a double axel?

    95 Jr Worlds SP spread eagle with knee bend, straight into 2A

    1996 Worlds SP back outside counter (1A); double but not perfect at Centennial on Ice

    96 Euros FS forward outside threes in both directions, step up from back inside edge

    97 Worlds SP clockwise back crossovers, edge change to basic back outside edge approach (what I call the question mark approach; just slightly more complicated than the typical same-direction back crossovers)

    97 Worlds LP bunny hop, bunny hop, half-inside axel, half-inside axel, opposite-direction half axel into lunge, directly up into 2A (failed, but wow on the difficulty!)

    successful with much simpler approach at 97 Euros

  3. #18
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    Most of us have appreciation in artistic approach of figure skating; that's why many long-time figure fans are nostalgic of the old 6.0 system. I believe transitions are there for that exact reason, making jumps more than just "boings". Without any kind of transition, competitive figure skating would be dance-pause-JUMP-pause-resume to dance, which has always been my horror; even with the new system, not many single skaters master their art like ice dancers do.

    Jumps are one of many technical components that make up a program, just score more since it's riskier, harder and give visually instantaneous impacts than other ones. The old system may have allowed expressive programs, but (while some good programs had transitions) not all jumps were PART OF THE DANCE. Not that it's a whole lot better these days, but at least the rule encourages them to keep it in mind: jumps are part of the dance. Swirls(spins), snaps, glide(spiral), fluidity/cohesiveness(transition/flow), stretch/flexibility(!), jumps (!!!) etc. are all inclusive elements in dances such as ballet, jazz, hiphop, so on. Off-ice dances are judged on artistic impressions - and when scored, technical elements are scored in one way or another, as they altogether make up the art. Same with figures; techniques should be beautiful.

    Ideally, we should separate single skaters into two leagues like pairs: single skaters and sigle ice dancers. However, there's only so many leagues the ISU can accommodate, not to mention insufficient number of profitable fans to promote quality skater candidates to fill the 2 extra pools. Or, we could have singles do one technical program and one artistic program where jumps are optional and treated as part of step sequence/transition/etc., but that's just my fantasy. (And I'm getting too excited with this fantasy, that I'm huffing.)
    Last edited by bebevia; 11-04-2012 at 11:25 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bebevia View Post
    Ideally, we should separate single skaters into two leagues like pairs: single skaters and sigle ice dancers. However, there's only so many leagues the ISU can accommodate, not to mention insufficient number of profitable fans to promote quality skater candidates to fill the 2 extra pools. Or, we could have singles do one technical program and one artistic program where jumps are optional and treated as part of step sequence/transition/etc., but that's just my fantasy. (And I'm getting too excited with this fantasy, that I'm huffing.)
    I think a good compromise would be to further limit the number of jumping passes so skaters had more time to complete their program elements, particularly when the steps take up about a fifth of the SP time. I would like to see the LP with 5 jumping passes, no jumps repeated, and no 3 jump combos. That would encourage a greater breadth of jump types, since right now you can complete 4 triples with only 2 types of triples. And it would eliminate the thing I hate most, which is poorly executed 3 jump combos where the last jump is UR or randomly Tano'ed.

  5. #20
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Five just isn't enough jump passes. Prejuv and Juv kids are doing 5 (usually doubles) jump passes with nice in betweens. 5 passes in a 4:10 program would look very empty. I would agree with potentially eliminating the 3 jump combo (unless it's X+1/2Lo+Y) as with ladies, most double loops at the end of the three jump is at minimum < and looks sloppy.

  6. #21
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    How many different ways can one skater get into a double axel?

    95 Jr Worlds SP spread eagle with knee bend, straight into 2A

    1996 Worlds SP back outside counter (1A); double but not perfect at Centennial on Ice

    96 Euros FS forward outside threes in both directions, step up from back inside edge

    97 Worlds SP clockwise back crossovers, edge change to basic back outside edge approach (what I call the question mark approach; just slightly more complicated than the typical same-direction back crossovers)

    97 Worlds LP bunny hop, bunny hop, half-inside axel, half-inside axel, opposite-direction half axel into lunge, directly up into 2A (failed, but wow on the difficulty!)

    successful with much simpler approach at 97 Euros
    That's a very interesting collection. Thanks for the research.

    Hey, this lady was pretty good!

    Well, this is 6.0, so the variety of entrances to the double Axel does not get x number of CoP points. Still, I can easily see that the judges would reward the fancy approaches in both the technical and the performance marks. It seems pretty clear in these examples that the more challenging the entrance the more likely the jump is to be unsuccessful. I suppose this is obvious. Every senior skater can do a double Axel. But can you do one preceded by elaborate steps, turns and moves in the field?

    That said, I am not a big fan of difficulty for difficulty's sake. I don't think a 'Tano position adds anything of value to a jump, for instance. To me, it is like jumping with a chicken tied to your leg. Difficult, yes, but it takes away from the beauty of the jump done properly, with a long, flowing exit edge.

    I will give the skater in these videos a +1 costume bonus in her first performance, though. Elly May Clampett meets Daisy Mae Yokum (nee Scraggs).

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    Five just isn't enough jump passes. Prejuv and Juv kids are doing 5 (usually doubles) jump passes with nice in betweens. 5 passes in a 4:10 program would look very empty. I would agree with potentially eliminating the 3 jump combo (unless it's X+1/2Lo+Y) as with ladies, most double loops at the end of the three jump is at minimum < and looks sloppy.
    Yet, there are some who can do it well (or could do it) therefor the combo should not be eliminated. I love Miki's, Mao's and Yu-Na's three jump combos. At nowadays, Mao may have some problems with it but why eliminate it? She can get it back like it was in the past. Her 3F+2Lo+2Lo is a difficult element with steps going in and tano variation and I am actually very happy to see Mao improve her technical content even if it hasn't been totally clean yet. In her first senior years Mao could do such combos in her sleep, then she lost it and now she's getting it back, that is good. I'm happy she's upping the ante.

  8. #23
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    I just think the 3 jump combo is an element that's essentially mandatory (or you're giving up points) and rarely done well. And when it is done well it isn't all that impressive to me. By the end skaters have almost no runout.

  9. #24
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    Best 3 jumps combo by a lady

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7L2nOfs#t=188s

    The transition going into the jump, the flow coming out. Just perfect.
    The judges lowballed this combo big time, half of them gave her 0 GOE. The other half +1 GOE.
    By today standard, it would be +2 or +3 GOE.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Best 3 jumps combo by a lady

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7L2nOfs#t=188s

    The transition going into the jump, the flow coming out. Just perfect.
    The judges lowballed this combo big time, half of them gave her 0 GOE. The other half +1 GOE.
    By today standard, it would be +2 or +3 GOE.
    Shizuka was one of the most underrated skaters of all time, despite being a WC and OC. I think she was far superior to her peers but only beat them when others made mistakes. I'm glad she earned the most important titles in the sport. And, yes, that combo was great.

  11. #26
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I agree with this point. "Transitions" into jumps just make you mess up the jump. One of the flaws of the CoP, in my opinion.
    well not really. If you can skate fast into a jump and while doing rockers or a hold a spiral coming out of it, then all the more power to you. the fault it that skaters are thinking that adding transitions before and after jumps will help them with the points, when in reality a rotated jump with lots of speed coming in and out would actually be more beneficial.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Best 3 jumps combo by a lady

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...7L2nOfs#t=188s

    The transition going into the jump, the flow coming out. Just perfect.
    The judges lowballed this combo big time, half of them gave her 0 GOE. The other half +1 GOE.
    By today standard, it would be +2 or +3 GOE.
    I think that also Yu-Na's 2A+2T+2Lo in her Olympics FS was one of the few "good" 3-jumps combos! She actually received only +1 and +2...

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FSGMT View Post
    I think that also Yu-Na's 2A+2T+2Lo in her Olympics FS was one of the few "good" 3-jumps combos! She actually received only +1 and +2...
    The judges are not generous with GOE to 3-jump combos, because the flow out of even the well-executed ones is not as good compared to the flow out of a well-executed solo or 2-jump combination.

    Yu-Na actually fulfilled quite of the bullet points to get GOE: difficult entry, varied position in the air (tano double loop), as well as superior flow in and out and great height/distance on the axel (can't really get great height/distance on a double toe or double loop). Would've been enough to justify +2, but some judges may have disagreed about the flow out so they opted for just +1.

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