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Thread: 2012 election

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    depends on where you are in the US... a lot of Alaskan reps and dems alike aren't keen on Clinton (mainly because he let Gore taint his judgement where we're concerned).

    I think there's a respect for each other when it comes to Obama and romney, but more for their skills than each other as a human being.
    I don't know, Tonichelle. I watched that second debate and it was vicious. It felt more like two people hating each other hurling insults at each other than an actual debate.

  2. #17
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I think both understood how to get under teh other's collar... as I said I don't think they liked each other, but I think they respected each brought skills to the table.

    I didn't watch the debates because the vitrol each side spews does nothing to tell the truth of policies... it's more like recess antics by children.

  3. #18
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    Yes, it is like children's recess taunts. It might be that debating is a craft, and most pols actually don't know how to do it. (I had a friend who was on her college debating team. Real debaters are devotees of the science.) These guys' approximation of debating is kind of like Caroline Zhang's approximation of a triple lutz. (And you know I love Caroline, but she isn't known for her jump technique.) The real thing is very different from the slash-and-burn we so often see. You have to be very fast off the mark to be good at it, as Clinton is and before him John Kennedy. You also have to be unafraid of the unexpected moment. There was a charming moment during an earlier primary cycle, when John McCain (this was not in the 2008 season, when he was the candidate--it may have been in 2000) was asked whether he'd keep Alan Greenspan as the head of the Federal Reserve. He said, not only would he keep Greenspan, but if anything happened to Greenspan, he'd prop him up like the corpse in Weekend at Bernie's so it looked as if Greenspan were still heading the Fed. It was funny, human, and indicative of what McCain actually believed about economic policy.

    Actually, one of the best debates in recent years was the vice-presidential debate between Dick Cheney and Joseph Lieberman. Both of them were respectful and cogent. Most people who watched felt they learned a lot. I supported one and not the other, but I felt I was listening to a reasonable discussion of why each was running for office.

    As for Romney and character assassination, I didn't cast my vote because I thought Romney was a terrible character, so if any attempted smirching was done, it didn't work with me. I voted for Obama because about what Romney said about himself and his policies. I don't believe that an unrestrained free market is a good thing, and, paradoxically, it doesn't benefit capitalism. One of the great worries I have about modern society is the huge differential between the salary of an ordinary worker and the salary of the head of a corporation. I think the ratio is something like 1:125, and that kind of inequality is inherently destabilizing. I don't resent the rich, but that particular kind of imbalance of resources and power is not healthy in the long run.
    Last edited by Olympia; 11-08-2012 at 08:13 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Yes, it is like children's recess taunts. It might be that debating is a craft, and most pols actually don't know how to do it. (I had a friend who was on her college debating team. Real debaters are devotees of the science.) These guys' approximation of debating is kind of like Caroline Zhang's approximation of a triple lutz. (And you know I love Caroline, but she isn't known for her jump technique.) The real thing is very different from the slash-and-burn we so often see. You have to be very fast off the mark to be good at it, as Clinton is and before him John Kennedy. You also have to be unafraid of the unexpected moment. There was a charming moment during an earlier primary cycle, when John McCain (this was not in the 2008 season, when he was the candidate--it may have been in 2000) was asked whether he'd keep Alan Greenspan as the head of the Federal Reserve. He said, not only would he keep Greenspan, but if anything happened to Greenspan, he'd prop him up like the corpse in Weekend at Bernie's so it looked as if Greenspan were still heading the Fed. It was funny, human, and indicative of what McCain actually believed about economic policy.

    Actually, one of the best debates in recent years was the vice-presidential debate between Dick Cheney and Joseph Lieberman. Both of them were respectful and cogent. Most people who watched felt they learned a lot. I supported one and not the other, but I felt I was listening to a reasonable discussion of why each was running for office.
    Yeah, those forensics kids are hard core -- my university had one of the best forensics programs in the country. My husband also did speech + debate in high school and even in our discussions -- we don't always see eye-to-eye -- he is very good at articulating his points.

    I always liked Joseph Liberman, regardless of what side he was on. And looking back Cheney wasn't as bad as I thought he was in real time. I'll have to dig up that debate sometime.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonlightSkater View Post
    I do tend to think that a Reagan-style conservative might have had a chance because even though he was very conservative politically (after switching in the mid-60s to Republican), he was very, very likeable, and I'm sure that helped him.
    OK, but you're not saying that Ronald Reagan was a fiscal conservative, right? Mister "borrow, borrow, borrow, spend, spend, spend?" The person who introduced America, both at the governmental level and the personal level, to the concept of "whoever is the most in debt when he dies wins"?

    In eight years Reagan almost tripled the national debt as a percent of gross domestic product. (Obama is a piker in this regard.) Unfortunately for America, the bill did eventually come due, 20 years later.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-08-2012 at 10:36 PM.

  6. #21
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    Congratulations to Obama on his victory! I hope that now, with the election out of the way, we can focus more on national unity rather than party division.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverFish View Post
    Congratulations to Obama on his victory! I hope that now, with the election out of the way, we can focus more on national unity rather than party division.
    I'm not holding my breath, but I still hope too.

  8. #23
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    I always hope. We deserve a government that figures things out and works for us.

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