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Thread: 2012 Cup of Russia Short Dance

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Kustarova wall: Not so much score much lower, but struggle as the years go on (it's unfair to say this since they're likely not skating any more international events this season, but I'd be surprised if they outscored this SD until after Sochi). Their posture is bad. As in really really bad. Like nearly unwatchable. And this program wasn't terribly choreographed or anything (until it got fast paced). And it's going to be so hard to fix. It'll limit their scoring potential. Technically weaker teams - the Kerrs, for example - just run up against it. Compare how she develops her skaters to how Paul McIntosh developed Virtue/Moir and there's a world of difference.

    Shibutanis: It's a gorgeously paced program - it's calibrated very strongly and peaks well. Well skated with strong technical elements and it'll leave a good impression. It's different enough for them to be a notable challenge, but not completely out of their wheelhouse either (both do give great face, imo). It's interesting to note that Zoueva really does seem interested in more modern movements - both the Shibs and V/M are trying more unusual body positions throughout their dances (watch Maia's arm movement). It'll need a lot of work - the devil's in the details with this one; I/K aren't three points ahead of them PCS (that's a joke and clear home cooking). But I look forward to this one.
    Thanks IP. I think you articulated much better why I can't quite just say "trash it" to the Shibs SD. In the end I think if they did Mary Poppins, they would be accused of not challenging themselves and/or doing the same type of program. I'm going to watch it again and look for the things you pointed out.

  2. #92
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    OMG! After watching the Shibutani's SD I am in shock how awful it is. Terrible music. Terrible, generic movements. The program has no soul or life. This makes 2 years in a row where Zueva has given them absolute crap. They really need a change. They are going downhill fast and these lame programs are doing nothing to improve or enhance their reputation. Sad to see this because they were one of my favorite teams and I wanted them to do well so the U.S could maintain 3 places for the Olympics. With this disaster of a program, they will be lucky to even make the World team. AWFUL!

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswanphoto View Post
    OMG! After watching the Shibutani's SD I am in shock how awful it is. Terrible music. Terrible, generic movements. The program has no soul or life. This makes 2 years in a row where Zueva has given them absolute crap. They really need a change. They are going downhill fast and these lame programs are doing nothing to improve or enhance their reputation. Sad to see this because they were one of my favorite teams and I wanted them to do well so the U.S could maintain 3 places for the Olympics. With this disaster of a program, they will be lucky to even make the World team. AWFUL!
    Agree with most of this assessment. I don't think this program is salvageable into a good points-getting vehicle. I'd have preferred them to do a literal polka, cheesy and all, over this mess. It's starting to become obvious that they are an "afterthought" team for Zoueva so they should consider moving on, and possibly asap rather than wait for this season to end. They might be able to salvage the end of the season and re-set themselves in a better position for the next Olympic season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Agree with most of this assessment. I don't think this program is salvageable into a good points-getting vehicle. I'd have preferred them to do a literal polka, cheesy and all, over this mess. It's starting to become obvious that they are an "afterthought" team for Zoueva so they should consider moving on, and possibly asap rather than wait for this season to end. They might be able to salvage the end of the season and re-set themselves in a better position for the next Olympic season.
    I am just baffled as to what that woman's thought process must have been when creating this. Did she choreograph this with the lights turned off?! As a world class coach I would be embarrassed.

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    Hold on folks their Long program/dance will be better. the Shibs are such nice peeps; I hope they figure out where they are going. They do a nice interpretation and utilize their Japanese roots. But I am more concerend about V and M - they don't seem to be scoring too well compared to D and W mind you different judges. Also, I would like to see I and K's scores as well as V and M be given a bit hgher. I do think B and S and I and K have closed the gap considerably with P and B but the marks don't reflect that. I find P and B rather generic but the Russians defnitely have more versatility and something special factor.

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    Just watched this. Still not convinced by V&M's SD, I don't see a coherent concept here. Especially since their FD is so interesting and well thought out, the SD seems even more "meh" in comparison. I liked I&K's SD, but from what I've seen so far their FD is an absolute nightmare... And I'm agreeing with everybody saying that all the talented Kustarova teams need to get away from Kustarova ASAP. Perhaps then she'll rethink her approach to coaching and choreography and do things in a more productive fashion.

    The Shibutanis' SD is a terrible fit for them. It worked for D/D because they were fierce and charismatic and had on point choreography, otherwise music like that can make a programme appear aimless, which this one did. They've rightly recognized that they need to branch out artistically, but copying...sorry, "being influenced by" the Duchesnays doesn't strike me as either original or a good idea. V&M's FD is great, as is D&W's SD, not quite convinced yet by the three other programmes coming out of Canton. And I do agree that none of the teams look quite as technically sharp as we're used to see from them, even this early in the season. I do think the lack of Shpilband is noticeable there. But these are probably the usual growing pains in situations like this. I just hope it doesn't cost the Shibutanis their career that they're caught up in this transition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by katha View Post
    I just hope it doesn't cost the Shibutanis their career that they're caught up in this transition.
    This is a sobering thought indeed and they would do well to consider all their options right now. But it's got to start with jettisoning this program. I can see this not even doing well enough Nationals to podium. I'm wondering if the best thing to do would be to pull out of their second GP and just focus on getting a new SD together and maybe see if they can deal with the coaching situation.

  8. #98
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    Again, consider this is the FIRST competition for the Shibs. You can dispute they should have started earlier or whatever (there's a discussion going on their fan thread). Also consider this program is all but 3-4 weeks old (consider the commentators didn't even realize they changed programs (I don't understand Italian but I heard "Mary Poppins" a lot on the YouTube video!)!

    They have a LOT of work to do, but I think Imaginary Pogue explained pretty well why this program could work with some extra time and refinement on it.

    And as I said up thread, they are not great early-season (and it's early season for them) SD skaters.

    Let's see how they do in the FD and take it from there.

    ETA: Also consider that Isabelle and Paul were 27 and 29 when they did that program! Maia and Alex are only 18 and 21. So to expect them to be at the same level artistically is a bit much.

    Ultimately the Shibs do have time on their side at this point to explore different styles and music. And yes not everything will be perfect, but with so many veteran couples at the top currently, this is actually good time to do it.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-10-2012 at 07:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Again, consider this is the FIRST competition for the Shibs. You can dispute they should have started earlier or whatever (there's a discussion going on their fan thread). Also consider this program is all but 3-4 weeks old (consider the commentators didn't even realize they changed programs (I don't understand Italian but I heard "Mary Poppins" a lot on the YouTube video!)!

    They have a LOT of work to do, but I think Imaginary Pogue explained pretty well why this program could work with some extra time and refinement on it.

    And as I said up thread, they are not great early-season (and it's early season for them) SD skaters.

    Let's see how they do in the FD and take it from there.

    ETA: Also consider that Isabelle and Paul were 27 and 29 when they did that program! Maia and Alex are only 18 and 21. So to expect them to be at the same level artistically is a bit much.

    Ultimately the Shibs do have time on their side at this point to explore different styles and music. And yes not everything will be perfect, but with so many veteran couples at the top currently, this is actually good time to do it.
    I am sorry but there is nothing that can be salvaged from this program. It's complete and utter garbage. If I was the USFSA I would not send them to 4CC or Worlds. And I would hammer their PC's to hell until they get the message that BIG changes need to be made.

    This year Zueva put all her energy into Carmen and all the other programs pretty much went by the wayside. Even Davis and White has that terrible FD.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswanphoto View Post
    I am sorry but there is nothing that can be salvaged from this program. It's complete and utter garbage. If I was the USFSA I would not send them to 4CC or Worlds. And I would hammer their PC's to hell until they get the message that BIG changes need to be made.

    This year Zueva put all her energy into Carmen and all the other programs pretty much went by the wayside. Even Davis and White has that terrible FD.
    Well I'm glad that USFSA doesn't trash skaters based on one performance of one SD. Good lord! I get that you don't like the program, but we haven't even seen the FD yet. Last I heard, there are TWO segments in a competition.

    ETA: I saw D/W FD at Skate America live and I didn't think it was terrible. They will work on it throughout the year and even so, they performed it well. Like the Shibs' program, it was relatively new AND a switch from their earlier FD (Sinatra). Time, people!
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-10-2012 at 09:47 AM.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Well I'm glad that USFSA doesn't trash skaters based on one performance of one SD. Good lord! I get that you don't like the program, but we haven't even seen the FD yet. Last I heard, there are TWO segments in a competition.
    People were saying the same thing last year when the exact same thing happened... We see how that turned out.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswanphoto View Post
    People were saying the same thing last year when the exact same thing happened... We see how that turned out.
    All I'm saying is we should wait to see the FD at THIS competition before we judge how they'll do this season. I don't think that's such an extreme thing to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    All I'm saying is we should wait to see the FD at THIS competition before we judge how they'll do this season. I don't think that's such an extreme thing to say.
    Fair enough... But I have seen it time and again when the Short Program leave such a bad impression in the eyes of the judges that it effects what they could have gotten in the free skate.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswanphoto View Post
    Fair enough... But I have seen it time and again when the Short Program leave such a bad impression in the eyes of the judges that it effects what they could have gotten in the free skate.
    Actually, the Shibtuanis have come back from a subpar SD before. NHK, they were third behind I/K and W/P in the SD, and then they ended up winning the FD to win the whole competition. They did that in their debut season as well. As I said, they are definitely stronger FD skaters.

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    This!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by katha View Post
    The Shibutanis' SD is a terrible fit for them. It worked for D/D because they were fierce and charismatic and had on point choreography, otherwise music like that can make a programme appear aimless, which this one did. They've rightly recognized that they need to branch out artistically, but copying...sorry, "being influenced by" the Duchesnays doesn't strike me as either original or a good idea. V&M's FD is great, as is D&W's SD, not quite convinced yet by the three other programmes coming out of Canton. And I do agree that none of the teams look quite as technically sharp as we're used to see from them, even this early in the season. I do think the lack of Shpilband is noticeable there. But these are probably the usual growing pains in situations like this. I just hope it doesn't cost the Shibutanis their career that they're caught up in this transition.
    You have articulated exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post. The choreography makes this program aimless and accentuates their weaknesses instead of their strengths.

    And they have strengths- so many of them! This is a drastic mis-calculation for a team that I love. And it could very well ruin their career if they're not careful they are in a growing year right now and while they aren't fighting for gold in Sochi they will want to be positioned near or on the podium so they can be primed to fight for the lead position the year after the Olympics. As it stands now, they are giving Russia and the other countries politiking against them the perfect fodder to bury them down in the lower half of the top 10 or worst I can see them falling outside the top 10 this season. If they get buried a second year in a row, it could very well kill the natural momentum any team has when it comes on the international scene. I hope that this thinking is precipitate and won't come to pass!

    Again, consider this is the FIRST competition for the Shibs. You can dispute they should have started earlier or whatever (there's a discussion going on their fan thread). Also consider this program is all but 3-4 weeks old (consider the commentators didn't even realize they changed programs (I don't understand Italian but I heard "Mary Poppins" a lot on the YouTube video!)!

    They have a LOT of work to do, but I think Imaginary Pogue explained pretty well why this program could work with some extra time and refinement on it.
    I don't think that the problem with this SD has anything to do with how much mileage it has on it. I think it's an intrinsic mis-match to what makes them shine as a team.

    I for one am not trashing them I'm trying to think what would make things better for them.

    I do hope their FD is great today. Can't wait to see it.

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