2012 Cup of Russia Men's SP | Page 10 | Golden Skate

2012 Cup of Russia Men's SP

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
No, you are wrong. I'm a fan of FS, not skater as not an expert. But I watched the Fs in my whole life. I can see Chan's glide on ice, but something is missing. Charisma? I don't know....I believe you, that Chan is great in PCS. But I have a question..he is two time world champion, why he hasn't more fans in the world?? /I don't speak about Fs forum members, i speak the layman people, but i think here are layman people too :) / Like had/ has Browning, Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Dai???? Why?? I think, this is a very important question...his most fans are in North-America, but the rest of the world don't go crazy for him..Why?

I think it's worth pointing out that Chan gets invited to skate in shows in China and Korea and was even invited to skate at the gala for Japanese Nationals - so he must have some support. I'm more curious why you feel so dismissive towards North American audiences in general when this discussion crops up. Browning, Yagudin and Plushenko grew up when skating was at it's height. Browning's professional programs alone are amazing. I'm not a fan of Plushenko at all, but there's no denying his ability to hold a crowd and compete. Lambiel and Dai? Lambiel is the best skate-artists around. Dai is skating where the sport is at it's most popular. I think all five are better audience grabbers. I think that Chan's specific skill set is less audience friendly, no doubt. I also think enough people have made up their minds such that he could become a mutant shapeshifter with multiple personality disorder and they would still say he lacks character and soul.
 

Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Love Patrick's skating. Such a shame he didn't know he can't do single in the combo. Why didn't he add the second jump to the lutz which usually is very good and at the second half? I can't believe he can't do the math. He really needs a real coach.
 

Butterscotch17

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
No, you are wrong. I'm a fan of FS, not skater as not an expert. But I watched the Fs in my whole life. I can see Chan's glide on ice, but something is missing. Charisma? I don't know....I believe you, that Chan is great in PCS. But I have a question..he is two time world champion, why he hasn't more fans in the world?? /I don't speak about Fs forum members, i speak the layman people, but i think here are layman people too :) / Like had/ has Browning, Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Dai???? Why?? I think, this is a very important question...his most fans are in North-America, but the rest of the world don't go crazy for him..Why?

I get what you are saying, and I kind of agree. This is why Patrick Chan cannot be one of my favorite skaters - because, like you said, he doesn't have that charisma that makes me love him. I can't always feel the emotion from him, and feel that he absolutely loves skating and loves being out there. Now, certain people like different things in their favorite skaters, and Chan just doesn't grab me.

Although I am not a fan, I do not want to take anything away from him. He is a brilliant jumper (most of the time :) ) and obviously a great all-around skater, and he deserves to have loyal fans for that who really appreciate his skating. I think he does have quite a few fans in the figure skating circle, too. Yeah, maybe the "layman people" don't love him as much, but I think that is just because he doesn't have that personality and charisma, which I think is something you either have or you just don't - you can't really learn it. He may be less popular because of it, but it doesn't really make him less of a champion, maybe just a little less entertaining (and I honestly do go for the charisma... Daisuke, Javier :love: ).

Now, it does bother me when people who aren't "Chan fans" say horrible things about him, and I've actually started kind of feeling bad for him. His skating may not capture me, but I actually like Patrick as a person. Yeah, I mean, I have thought that he was over-scored before, but I am not going to tear him down - it's not his fault. I think he just tries to do his best, and the judges will reward it. I don't think he deserves all the crap he gets. He's a nice guy and some people's insults (especially when they are personal) are cruel and unnecessary.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Because we've read some truly horrible attacks on him. Because there is a great deal of hypocrisy involved in the discussion. Because there is such a thing as invalid criticism. Because when we make responses that I think are reasonable, fact based ripostes, we get dismissed as bullies, or the facts get overwhelmed by the hyperbolic hate. I can discuss Chan with some people, but feel the need to do so in a private message in order to actually have a discussion.

Exactly.

Love Patrick's skating. Such a shame he didn't know he can't do single in the combo. Why didn't he add the second jump to the lutz which usually is very good and at the second half? I can't believe he can't do the math. He really needs a real coach.

I was wondering if Patrick knows that starting from this year, jumps in the second half in SP could get 10% bonus? There are probably a lot of things that he normally relies on his coach to tell him. To only rely on learning from mistakes at the competitions is just too costly for any skaters.
 
Last edited:

Puchi

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Johnny's program really look dated. It was almost embarrassing to watch. He's getting too old for that Lady Gaga stuff.
 
Last edited:

Ice Diva

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I get what you are saying, and I kind of agree. This is why Patrick Chan cannot be one of my favorite skaters - because, like you said, he doesn't have that charisma that makes me love him. I can't always feel the emotion from him, and feel that he absolutely loves skating and loves being out there. Now, certain people like different things in their favorite skaters, and Chan just doesn't grab me.

Although I am not a fan, I do not want to take anything away from him. He is a brilliant jumper (most of the time :) ) and obviously a great all-around skater, and he deserves to have loyal fans for that who really appreciate his skating. I think he does have quite a few fans in the figure skating circle, too. Yeah, maybe the "layman people" don't love him as much, but I think that is just because he doesn't have that personality and charisma, which I think is something you either have or you just don't - you can't really learn it. He may be less popular because of it, but it doesn't really make him less of a champion, maybe just a little less entertaining (and I honestly do go for the charisma... Daisuke, Javier :love: ).

Now, it does bother me when people who aren't "Chan fans" say horrible things about him, and I've actually started kind of feeling bad for him. His skating may not capture me, but I actually like Patrick as a person. Yeah, I mean, I have thought that he was over-scored before, but I am not going to tear him down - it's not his fault. I think he just tries to do his best, and the judges will reward it. I don't think he deserves all the crap he gets. He's a nice guy and some people's insults (especially when they are personal) are cruel and unnecessary.

Well said! We all have our favorite skaters, skaters whose style or expression appeals to us, draws us in, evokes emotion. I admire many skaters, for a variety of reasons & don't necessarily see one style as superior to another. I like Dai for his charisma & joie de vivre, Javier for his beautiful lines, jumps & sense of fun, and Patrick for his amazing ss, lines, edges. In dance/ballet emotion is expressed through body positions & movement, hands and arms, and that's where I personally see the emotion in Patrick's programs, such as to Rachmaninoff in his Short. Let's celebrate all these amazing, hardworking athletes ...
 

roundboypete

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 16, 2003
Question: Why did Chan plan a quad combo instead of a 3Lz3T in the second half of the program to gather more bonus points?

WeakAnkles said:
You know, I used to participate on a poetry workshop board, a board that makes this one a model of civility and moderation. The very first poem I posted, I got a response that I will politely summarize as, "Not a single word in this ________________ works."

Chan did a great big macho triple Axel!
Chan did a great big fearless triple Lutz!
Chan tried a big quadruptle-triple com-bo,
And that, said Chan, takes guts! :)
 

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Love Patrick's skating. Such a shame he didn't know he can't do single in the combo. Why didn't he add the second jump to the lutz which usually is very good and at the second half? I can't believe he can't do the math. He really needs a real coach.

I get the sense the 1T was not planned, ie he was forced to do it based on the landing of the quad. He probably knew if he added the combo to the lutz, his whole combo would be invalidated, basically costing him nearly 8 points.

Akiko Suzuki actually had a similar situation with her FS at SC, when she did an unplanned 1t on the end if her 3F, which basically forced her to change her last two jumping passes.
 
Last edited:

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I get the sense the 1T was not planned, ie he was forced to do it based on the landing of the quad. He probably knew if he added the combo to the lutz, his whole combo would be invalidated, basically costing him nearly 8 points.

Akiko Suzuki actually had a similar situation with her FS at SC, when she did an unplanned 1t on the end if her 3F, which basically forced her to change her last two jumping passes.

You are right. I believe Patrick knew that there could not be two combos in SP. But I think Ilvskating was saying the different thing. I think he/she meant to question why Patrick didn't plan in the first place to have a single 4T, and do a 3Lz-3T later in the second half of the program which he was perfectly capable of.
 

questar

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Personally I think Chan interpreted this SP music quite well.
I like his skating a lot. But I have never liked his SP. Even Exilados. That's not a tango.
And Take Five oh well. I really hate this program.
AND finally the program I really can enjoy.
He is not the skater has charisma. yes but for me that's no big deal.
But I understand for other people , It's important.

As for emotion I feel his emotion in this program. not in Exilados,and not much in take five.
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
You are right. I believe Patrick knew that there could not be two combos in SP. But I think Ilvskating was saying the different thing. I think he/she meant to question why Patrick didn't plan in the first place to have a single 4T, and do a 3Lz-3T later in the second half of the program which he was perfectly capable of.

Ah ok. That is an interesting question.....
 

IndieBoi

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 2, 2004
Well said! We all have our favorite skaters, skaters whose style or expression appeals to us, draws us in, evokes emotion. I admire many skaters, for a variety of reasons & don't necessarily see one style as superior to another. I like Dai for his charisma & joie de vivre, Javier for his beautiful lines, jumps & sense of fun, and Patrick for his amazing ss, lines, edges. In dance/ballet emotion is expressed through body positions & movement, hands and arms, and that's where I personally see the emotion in Patrick's programs, such as to Rachmaninoff in his Short. Let's celebrate all these amazing, hardworking athletes ...

:agree: :agree: :agree:
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Browning, Yagudin and Plushenko grew up when skating was at it's height. ... Dai is skating where the sport is at it's most popular.
You are not answering plusyfan's point- if Chan is as great as his score claims, then why he failed to revive the popularity of FS even in his home country. If it's because he doesn't have charisma and doesn't grab the audience, then why he gets such a huge score for Presentation and Interpretation. It doesn't add up. And no need to bring that old reason- it's all because of poor economy! In Russia the economy is not great either. But Plu gathered the full house just two days ago there (more than CoR or SC, both with Chan), with the ticket price of 10000 roubles (about 316$) in arena and 3000 (95$) in stands. How much was the ticket in SC? :laugh:
 

deedee1

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 14, 2007
Okay, guys. Let's go back to the competition itself, shall we? ;)

I have watched all Mens SP thru bigger TV screen and they turned out much better than last night.
Programs as whole, I really liked Gachinski's, Chan's and Kozuka's. Yes, they donot emote enough yet nor reach to the audience just yet. However, they at least try to do so and try to show their new style from what they were last season. I like that. :yes:

My big applause of the night goes to Zhan Bush. :clap:
He still skates like 'mini Plushy', but he indeed has improved from what he was at 2012 WTT this spring where I first saw him skate live and he exactly did skate like a junior skater. He may have loads of work to be done to become one of top skaters. But in this particular SP he skated like a senior, not a junior anymore. Kudos to him and his coach Urmy! :yay:
 
Last edited:

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
Okay, guys. Let's go back to the competition itself, shall we? ;)

I have watched all Mens SP thru bigger TV screen and they turned out much better than last night.
Programs as whole, I really liked Gachinski's, Chan's and Kozuka's. Yes, they donot emote enough yet nor reach to the audience just yet. However, they at least try to do so and try to show their new style from what they were last season. I like that. :yes:

My big applause of the night goes to Zhan Bush. :clap:
He still skates like 'mini Plushy', but he indeed has improved from what he was at 2012 WTT this spring where I first saw him skate live and he exactly did skate like a junior skater. He may have loads of work to be done to become one of top skaters. But in this particular SP he skated like a senior, not a junior anymore. Kudos to him and his coach Urmy! :yay:

I think it's cute that you call Urmanov, Urmy. :)
 

plushyfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Country
Hungary
We are living in a different time and figure skating is not as popular as it once was. We often forget that he is only 21. If you only read this forum you would think he was a horrible skater, severely overmarked.
First of all, I didn't mock Patrick in this forum. But honestly sometimes I don't agree with his points and results. I know skater who was superstar at 18. A sport needs superstars.

Where do you see this? I mean, figure skating in general has gone down in popularity over the last few years, you can barely find it on TV and the coverage when they do show it is rushed and so many are left out. If I asked anyone out there, in general, about figure skating, they'd be able to name Elvis, Kurt and probably Plushenko, but not many more; they'd have no clue who Lambiel and Buttle and even Yagudin are. Dai, well, skating is popular in a lot of the Asian countries so that makes sense (along with his charisma and personality), so it's easy to see why he's popular. I think Patrick probably has more fans there too, no? It's just not what it used to be in North America. As for his lack of personality, I understand what you mean, but he's obviously just not that 'outward' of a skater, although he seems to be working on that. I'd love him to have the showmanship of Plushenko and Dai, maybe it will come, maybe it won't, but I do think that if he was around 10 or 15 years ago, he'd probably have quite a few more fans. Just my opinion. :)
Yes, the Fs lost popularity, but why? Do you remember Nice? The laymen crowd didn't understand the reasult. In this situation, when the Fs isn't too popular, the stars have big-big fan camp, and buy the tickets for his favorite, so it isn't good explanation.
 
Last edited:

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Love Patrick's skating. Such a shame he didn't know he can't do single in the combo. Why didn't he add the second jump to the lutz which usually is very good and at the second half? I can't believe he can't do the math. He really needs a real coach.

After the landing of the quad, Patrick had a split second to decide whether or not to go for the combo. He went for it, but he didn't have enough speed for a double. It was a mistake, but not because he can't do math or doesn't know the rules. It's just very difficult during the performance to decide to change your program on the fly.

The 2010 GPF is one example of a time where the landing on the quad was okay but iffy (slightly UR but not visibly so), and he opted not to do the quad combo, and later did a 3/3.

Question: Why did Chan plan a quad combo instead of a 3Lz3T in the second half of the program to gather more bonus points?

Perhaps because if your quad is your solo jump, then it needs to have footwork/steps preceding it, and it's easier to have steps leading into his 3Lz than the quad. It's also good for skaters to get the combo out of the way. That way if you mess up your first attempt at the combo, you have the second jumping pass later in the program to try to get it done. But if you move your combo attempt to the back half, then that's your only chance.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To continue Jaylee's point, I can think of several reasons why a skater might go for the 4T-3T combo, sacrificing the ten per cent bonus on the triple toe.

1. The 4T-3T is the gold standard for men's figure skating. You want gold? Meet the standard! :yes:

2. Any reasonably acceptable 4T-3T is going to get positive GOE on top of base value. Triple Lutz-triple toe, maybe not so automatic.

3. What jaylee said. It is difficult to do steps, turns and skating movements into a quad. You risk a mandatory -3 GOE if the tech team decides you didn't do enough.

4. If you get your quad combo out of the way at the beginning then you can really concentrate on milking the program components the rest of the way. In particular...

5. You can do something extraordinary leading into the solo triple Lutz that you wouldn't want to chance either for a quad or for a Lutz combo.
 
Top