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Thread: 2012 Cup of Russia Men's SP

  1. #166
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    We are living in a different time and figure skating is not as popular as it once was. We often forget that he is only 21. If you only read this forum you would think he was a horrible skater, severely overmarked.

    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    No, you are wrong. I'm a fan of FS, not skater as not an expert. But I watched the Fs in my whole life. I can see Chan's glide on ice, but something is missing. Charisma? I don't know....I believe you, that Chan is great in PCS. But I have a question..he is two time world champion, why he hasn't more fans in the world?? /I don't speak about Fs forum members, i speak the layman people, but i think here are layman people too / Like had/ has Browning, Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Dai???? Why?? I think, this is a very important question...his most fans are in North-America, but the rest of the world don't go crazy for him..Why?

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    No, you are wrong. I'm a fan of FS, not skater as not an expert. But I watched the Fs in my whole life. I can see Chan's glide on ice, but something is missing. Charisma? I don't know....I believe you, that Chan is great in PCS. But I have a question..he is two time world champion, why he hasn't more fans in the world?? /I don't speak about Fs forum members, i speak the layman people, but i think here are layman people too / Like had/ has Browning, Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Dai???? Why?? I think, this is a very important question...his most fans are in North-America, but the rest of the world don't go crazy for him..Why?
    Where do you see this? I mean, figure skating in general has gone down in popularity over the last few years, you can barely find it on TV and the coverage when they do show it is rushed and so many are left out. If I asked anyone out there, in general, about figure skating, they'd be able to name Elvis, Kurt and probably Plushenko, but not many more; they'd have no clue who Lambiel and Buttle and even Yagudin are. Dai, well, skating is popular in a lot of the Asian countries so that makes sense (along with his charisma and personality), so it's easy to see why he's popular. I think Patrick probably has more fans there too, no? It's just not what it used to be in North America. As for his lack of personality, I understand what you mean, but he's obviously just not that 'outward' of a skater, although he seems to be working on that. I'd love him to have the showmanship of Plushenko and Dai, maybe it will come, maybe it won't, but I do think that if he was around 10 or 15 years ago, he'd probably have quite a few more fans. Just my opinion.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by plushyfan View Post
    No, you are wrong. I'm a fan of FS, not skater as not an expert. But I watched the Fs in my whole life. I can see Chan's glide on ice, but something is missing. Charisma? I don't know....I believe you, that Chan is great in PCS. But I have a question..he is two time world champion, why he hasn't more fans in the world?? /I don't speak about Fs forum members, i speak the layman people, but i think here are layman people too / Like had/ has Browning, Yagudin, Plushenko, Lambiel, Dai???? Why?? I think, this is a very important question...his most fans are in North-America, but the rest of the world don't go crazy for him..Why?
    Because the average folks don't even turn into figure skating anymore. There is significantly less mainstream media coverage than during the period of the skaters you mentioned above. Maybe hard to believe but the majority of ‘layman people’ don't stay up and hunt down live streaming of figure skating events online...

    I think the 'Chan-detractor' idea is not without merit. It's certainly normal to have preferences and to gravitate to certain skaters be it for stylistic reasons, or patriotic or whatever. But you have to wonder when you see demeaning, over the top comments that seem to take Chan’s perceived imperfections so personally.

    ETA: Sometimes people forget that these elite skaters have amazing talent and crafts. How many of you can honestly say you are ranked in the top 5, or even 10 in the world in whatever profession you have? All these skaters deserve to be discussed/commented respectfully.
    Last edited by IndieBoi; 11-09-2012 at 06:00 PM.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by IndieBoi View Post
    I think the 'Chan-detractor' idea is not without merit. It's certainly normal to have preferences and to gravitate to certain skaters be it for stylistic reasons, or patriotic or whatever. But you have to wonder when you see demeaning, over the top comments that seem to take Chan’s perceived imperfections so personally.
    On the flip side, you have to wonder why some of Chan's more ardent supporters on here take any criticism of either Chan or the way he is/has been judged so personally. It's not a one-way street...

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    Poor Johnny. I had a high hope for his return, but he basically ruined it with that program, an artless program whose main purpose seemed to be a venue for him to wiggle his butts before an audience.
    This program was a good piece of vaudeville, as well dated and self-indulgent.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    On the flip side, you have to wonder why some of Chan's more ardent supporters on here take any criticism of either Chan or the way he is/has been judged so personally. It's not a one-way street...
    No it's not. Any extreme is unwarranted.

  7. #172
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    Exactly!

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    It's not an artless program, it actually can work quite well, except for the last parts after the step sequence. The music cut there needs to be changed. Johnny's flow and positions are something that's sorely lacking from figure skating these days; it's too bad he completely bungled the jumps. He is NEVER going to do a rotated quad if he keeps approaching it like this. Needs way more speed and less reach-around on the toepick. He used to get very good elevation and rotation on his quads before going to Galina, albeit with two-foot landings. Regardless, fully-rotated quads with two-foot landings give you a lot of points under this scoring system, so that's what Johnny should aim to do. He needs to get a jump coach. Galina is TRASH.
    I agree that Galina has proved she is not at all a good tech coach for him. He might like the idea of having a Russian bossy grandma type for a coach, but realistically its not working. His skating has deteriorated since he started working with her. Never mind the quad, his triple axel used to be VERY consistent and a beautiful jump. Now its almost always two-footed and/or shaky. Gone is the triple/triple.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    So, Patrick's 1T got -3 GOE.
    ..which means that he didn't have a perfect 4T that counted as such. Only a combo with 1T that counded with -3 GOE. This argument is just desperate.
    Quote Originally Posted by SGrand View Post
    Where do you see this? I mean, figure skating in general has gone down in popularity over the last few years, you can barely find it on TV and the coverage
    I feel that some people missed the point that plushfan tried to bring. The lack of charisma, showmanship of some leaders and far than fair judgement is THE REASON why you can barely find fs on TV. Poor TV coverage is the consequence. Not vice versa.
    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    On the flip side, you have to wonder why some of Chan's more ardent supporters on here take any criticism of either Chan or the way he is/has been judged so personally. It's not a one-way street...
    Because it's the easiest thing for them to do- to say that others are dumb crowd, "irrational mob that should be ashamed of themselves", "who doesn't really know skating" (quotes are from Chan uber thread where non-Chan fans are constantly insulted, not that I mind much, it's better if Chan fans unload their bitterness there). Or move it into "personal" argument or whatever. In fact it means only one thing- they don't have a fs argument to reply on the criticism.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    ... his triple axel used to be VERY consistent and a beautiful jump. Now its almost always two-footed and/or shaky. Gone is the triple/triple.
    but how long has it been since he's needed those? when was the last year he did them prior to this fall?

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeakAnkles View Post
    On the flip side, you have to wonder why some of Chan's more ardent supporters on here take any criticism of either Chan or the way he is/has been judged so personally. It's not a one-way street...
    Because we've read some truly horrible attacks on him. Because there is a great deal of hypocrisy involved in the discussion. Because there is such a thing as invalid criticism. Because when we make responses that I think are reasonable, fact based ripostes, we get dismissed as bullies, or the facts get overwhelmed by the hyperbolic hate. I can discuss Chan with some people, but feel the need to do so in a private message in order to actually have a discussion.

    The skate itself was underwhelming. Lovely but I was hoping for more from this program. I think Exilados is his best SP by far still.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Because we've read some truly horrible attacks on him. Because there is a great deal of hypocrisy involved in the discussion. Because there is such a thing as invalid criticism. Because when we make responses that I think are reasonable, fact based ripostes, we get dismissed as bullies, or the facts get overwhelmed by the hyperbolic hate. I can discuss Chan with some people, but feel the need to do so in a private message in order to actually have a discussion.

    The skate itself was underwhelming. Lovely but I was hoping for more from this program. I think Exilados is his best SP by far still.

    You know, I used to participate on a poetry workshop board, a board that makes this one a model of civility and moderation. The very first poem I posted, I got a response that I will politely summarize as, "Not a single word in this ________________ works." I replied, "Phew! I guess that means the punctuation is A-OK." And, surprisingly, I got a LOT of private messages from people who told me they were very amused by my response and thanked me for not adding fuel to the fire. I also learned that those were the very people whose opinion I trusted. Funny how that works.

    Haters gonna hate. But I find the scroll button works wonders for restoring peace of mind.

    Actually what worries my most about Chan was his comment that he now has a coach that will let him off the hook if he just "doesn't feel" like practicing that day. Maybe it's like writing--I found I often learned more about technique from struggling through the hard-to-get poems rather than waiting for that elusive "inspiration" to strike. He needs a tech coach. Plain and simple.

    Oh, and for the record, I don't always agree with things you say, but I do find you always worth reading. No scroll needed.

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Because we've read some truly horrible attacks on him. Because there is a great deal of hypocrisy involved in the discussion. Because there is such a thing as invalid criticism. Because when we make responses that I think are reasonable, fact based ripostes, we get dismissed as bullies, or the facts get overwhelmed by the hyperbolic hate. I can discuss Chan with some people, but feel the need to do so in a private message in order to actually have a discussion.

    I'm with you on this. I've almost quit this forum on a couple of occasions over some of the incredible ugliness and vitriol directed at Patrick Chan and even Canada as a whole. At times it's been so overwhelming I was truly just about done, even though I love figure skating, and discussing figure skating and am a fan of many skaters from many countries.

  14. #179
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    Funny. Besides me there were maybe a couple of posters who tried to criticized Chan's score. But now we have pages from his ubers where they whiningly complain how much attacked they are!

    That's why some people who have smth. fair to say on his skating don't want to post- they don't want to deal with this hipocricy and double standards.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    The skate itself was underwhelming. Lovely but I was hoping for more from this program.
    I felt emptiness from that performance as well. "Something is missing"--That was what I felt. To me, the thing that was missing is "soul". Unlike his previous programs full of dazzling quick feet, this program has some quiet, simple moments that demand the skater to fill it full with artistic expressions or emotional involvement. Failing to do so would result in an empty feeling.

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