2012 Cup of Russia Men FS. | Page 7 | Golden Skate

2012 Cup of Russia Men FS.

spikydurian

Medalist
Joined
Jan 15, 2012
You also conveniently forgot to count falls and hands down, step outs or edge calls, which you are very capable of counting when it is Patrick Chan who made those mistakes. :rolleye: None of the above can be reflected in the BV but there were plenty of those tonight. Chan's GOE is high in part because he made no deductible error whereas other skaters made several in their programs, including at least one fall from each of the top 5. Therefore, GOE in these cases are objective in that they properly reflected the deductible errors that have to be considered and a fall on jump usually produces around -3 for GOE, about 99% of the time.

What you are doing is quoting the protocol out of the context, in your very deliberate attempt to continue your infamous "inflation" allegation. Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of members here are quite knowledgeable. People here know for example, when Kozuka UR both of his Quads, including a fall on one of them, he may have relatively high BV for those attempts but he would also rightfully receive lesser GOE, plus a mandatory deduction that is not being reflected in the BV. So yes, you could make an argument his overall program was more difficult but it remains a paper tiger if he can't land them properly. I could load a program with Quad Flip, Quad Lutz and other Quads and my BV would look superb - only if it were so easy.

I don't know if you realize it but your continuous outrageous and verbal assaults on Patrick Chan has turned many otherwise ambivalent members who were previously indifferent re: Chan to sympathize with him. The fictional outrage really isn't working very well because people aren't stupid. Not a single soul here has contested the result but you can somehow dig the BV in an attempt to create a controversy when there is none to be found. Take my advice, just let it go, otherwise very soon, no one is going to take your posts seriously.
:thumbsup: :clap::bow:
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
I have to say that I don't understand some of Kozuka's interpretation for the music. He often leaves the music aside and does something irrelevant. Deedee, you are right to worry about Kozuka's PCS because I think he's going to continue to get hammered on PCS based on this kind of music, interpretation, and choreography.

Wow, amazing how we can watch the same program and have completely different opinions! I love this program for Kozuka, and don't find anything wrong with his interpretation. If only he can land his quads cleanly!!
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I really dont believe Kozuka has so low pcs on the specific field of CoR. He has 14 points less than Chan... This is a huge marging I cannot comprehend at all. If judges appreciate great ss, choreo etc etc where are they looking when Kozu skates?
Oda's pcs are 20 points less than the winner too, I dont know what to say.
 

Ice Diva

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
Be careful... someone here will say that you have breathing problems.
They dont understand the meaning between breathtaking and breathless!

But, you are correct the program was breathtaking!!!
He will need to up the ante but I think that will come slowly to peak at worlds. GO PATRICK

I second that. Truly passionate and heartfelt. LOL about your comment on differences between breathtaking and breathless -- some may believe "breathless" means no longer living!!
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I really dont believe Kozuka has so low pcs on the specific field of CoR. He has 14 points less than Chan... This is a huge marging I cannot comprehend at all. If judges appreciate great ss, choreo etc etc where are they looking when Kozu skates?

Perhaps Kozuka's 3 visible errors (not counting his underrotated 3Lz3T) that somewhat interrupted the flow of his performance had something to do with it. Although one may argue that two perfect 10.00s for Chan's skating skills were too generous, the final placement was correct: Chan gold, Kozuka silver, both going to the GPF:clap:.

By the way, I got the impression that this season the judges seemed to penalize falls more severely, perhaps as a result of fans' constant outcry. Coincidentally, Chan seemed to have changed his strategy as well. He used to risk a fall in fully rotating a jump. Now he simply doubled it instead. Perhaps Chan, like the judges, has responded to the public complaints. And I like it. He didn't fall = receive high scores = well-deserved :clap:
 
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chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
Perhaps Kozuka's 3 visible errors (not counting his underrotated 3Lz3T) that somewhat interrupted the flow of his performance had something to do with it. Although one may argue that two perfect 10.00s for Chan's skating skills were too generous, the final placement was correct: Chan gold, Kozuka silver, both going to the GPF:clap:.

By the way, I got the impression that this season the judges seemed to penalize falls more severely, perhaps as a result of fans' constant outcry. Coincidentally, Chan seemed to have changed his strategy as well. He used to risk a fall in fully rotating a jump. Now he simply doubled it instead. Perhaps Chan, like the judges, has responded to the public complaints. And I like it. He didn't fall = receive high scores = well-deserved :clap:

Nobody's disputing the final placement; I just think that Kozuka is always getting lower PCS than he deserves.
 

naan

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
What you are doing is quoting the protocol out of the context, in your very deliberate attempt to continue your infamous "inflation" allegation. Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of members here are quite knowledgeable. People here know for example, when Kozuka UR both of his Quads, including a fall on one of them, he may have relatively high BV for those attempts but he would also rightfully receive lesser GOE, plus a mandatory deduction that is not being reflected in the BV. So yes, you could make an argument his overall program was more difficult but it remains a paper tiger if he can't land them properly. I could load a program with Quad Flip, Quad Lutz and other Quads and my BV would look superb - only if it were so easy.

I don't know if you realize it but your continuous outrageous and verbal assaults on Patrick Chan has turned many otherwise ambivalent members who were previously indifferent re: Chan to sympathize with him. The fictional outrage really isn't working very well because people aren't stupid. Not a single soul here has contested the result but you can somehow dig the BV in an attempt to create a controversy when there is none to be found. Take my advice, just let it go, otherwise very soon, no one is going to take your posts seriously.
Well said, wallylutz! :clap: ITA.
Patrick was absolutely stunning. Well deserved PCS, especially the SS mark!

I've seen Patrick, Kozuka, and Oda live before, but Patrick was another level. After watching him skate, I could understand why he always gets huge PCS and GOE on his jumps. Speed, transitions, qualities of his jumps and spins, skating skills, choreography... Everything was perfect.
I was wowed by Kozuka's skating, too. I always thought he was boring on TV, but seeing him live was different. He has great SS and speed! Not compared to Patrick, but he was awesome! He's undermarked on PCS, IMO. Maybe because of interpretation, performance, and choreography?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
By the way, I got the impression that this season the judges seemed to penalize falls more severely, perhaps as a result of fans' constant outcry. Coincidentally, Chan seemed to have changed his strategy as well. He used to risk a fall in fully rotating a jump. Now he simply doubled it instead. Perhaps Chan, like the judges, has responded to the public complaints. And I like it. He didn't fall = receive high scores = well-deserved :clap:

Yeah. Kind of a "be careful what you ask for, you might get it" situation. :)
 

jan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
I agree Kozuka should receive much higher PCS. However, I feel that people do not need to question Chan's scores in order to do this. Anyone watching Chan today cannot dispute his PCS scores. He is a cut above the rest. Truly amazing!
Nobody's disputing the final placement; I just think that Kozuka is always getting lower PCS than he deserves.
 

Niki2012

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
I do think P Chan deserves 10 in SS. His skating is amazing and over the top. But I do not get how he gets much higher scores in other PCS elements like P/E, Choreo and Interpretation. He skated flawlessly except a couple of jumping mistakes, which translate into higher scores? But then, Hanyu got 79 in PCS at Skate America when he had three falls and run out of gas obviously toward the end of program. In terms of flawlessness, Oda and Kozuka were much better, but Oda got only 73 and Kozuka got 79 this time.

You get higher scores in other elements too if you have superb SS? Is Hanyu’s skating better than Oda and Kozuka?
I do not think so. :slink:

I like P Chan’s new program and he deserves a win this time. I just do not get PCS is inflated for some skaters and deflated for some, and there is no clear explanation for it.:confused:
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Skating skills remain relatively constant regardless the number of errors made in technical elements. So Kuzuka's 8.32 in CoR compared to his 8.43 in SA seems about right to me. Performance/Execution can fluctuate greatly depends on the mistakes one makes in a performance. So Kuzuka's 7.79 in CoR (more errors) compared to his 8.57 in SA (relatively clean) seems to be justifiable as well. CH concerns the executed choreography, not the planned choreography. So I can see it goes down as more errors occur. What puzzles me dearly is actually his short program PCS at SA. I thought he should have gotten higher scores. I don't think Kuzuka's scores were deflated in CoR. I, however, think Chan's scores were inflated (Don't kill me if I say so). Even so, he should have won anyway. So no complaint from me.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Oda was seriously low-balled on the PCS. Just goes to show how much competition momentum, reputation, and politics plays into the judging. That was a good performance with nice choreography and musicality, and plenty of transitions and speed. He also got a < call and -GOE on his 3S for no reason at all. He really should have been on the podium here.
 

sunny0760

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Oda was seriously low-balled on the PCS. Just goes to show how much competition momentum, reputation, and politics plays into the judging. That was a good performance with nice choreography and musicality, and plenty of transitions and speed. He also got a < call and -GOE on his 3S for no reason at all. He really should have been on the podium here.

I don't know if he should have been on the podium or not. He made such costly mistakes in SP.
I liked Oda very much in the long, however. Nearly flawless except the first fall. What surprised me most this time was wow he skates big. He doesn't look like a small man. Not that big like Chan but still. And those beautiful 3As!! Deserves higher PCS, I think his and Kozuka's should have been closer.
Oda's win at J. Nats this year may be a tall order but not really impossile if he can do clean SP and LP. I will root for him.

Kozuka has been my favorite Japanese for years but this year, it seems that his jump layout is too ambitious. If you are not so confident with 4T, only one clean 4T in LP will not hurt much. Go Kozuka!
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Oda was seriously low-balled on the PCS.
Because of your post, I watched Oda's performance and I think you might be right. I would have given him Skating Skills 8.25 + Transition / Linking Footwork 7.75 + Performance/Execution 8.00 + Choreography/Composition 8.00 + Interpretation 8.25 = 40.25 *2 = 80.50 PCS.
81.76 (TES) + 80.50 (PCS) = 162.26 (FP). Total Score = 63.18 (SP) + 162.26 (FP) = 225.44 > Michal BREZINA's 224.56
Oda could have won the bronze.
 
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Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011

FSGMT

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 10, 2012
I do think P Chan deserves 10 in SS. His skating is amazing and over the top. But I do not get how he gets much higher scores in other PCS elements like P/E, Choreo and Interpretation. He skated flawlessly except a couple of jumping mistakes, which translate into higher scores? But then, Hanyu got 79 in PCS at Skate America when he had three falls and run out of gas obviously toward the end of program. In terms of flawlessness, Oda and Kozuka were much better, but Oda got only 73 and Kozuka got 79 this time.

You get higher scores in other elements too if you have superb SS? Is Hanyu’s skating better than Oda and Kozuka?
I do not think so. :slink:

I like P Chan’s new program and he deserves a win this time. I just do not get PCS is inflated for some skaters and deflated for some, and there is no clear explanation for it.:confused:
Kozuka deserved something more, surely 80+, but I think that Patrick's flow and skating ARE actually far batter than Kozuka, Oda and Hanyu and that he deserved 10 for SS, his ability in using those skates are just PERFECT! And, talking about Takahiko, I always find his programs really emotionless, boring sometimes... Well skated and with a good flow and choreography, yes, but non emotionally captivating... Is it just me? :slink:
 

Taan

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Kozuka is a wonderful skater but he can be too introspective in his performances for my taste. His subtle style comes off as dull. Still his skating skills are incredible.
 

IleK

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
I totally agree with you, and this is exactly how I felt last season about Chan, because, well, I'm an unforgiving Daisuke fan :) You first paragraph took the words right out of my mouth. I didn't like Chan winning everything when sometimes I didn't think the win was justified. However, I never hated Chan, and this season I find myself liking him a little bit more. Still not a fan, but I can appreciate his skating. His free skate is very good this season, and he no question deserved to win this competition.

Daisuke's programs aren't bad, he had a lot to live up to after his magnificent programs last year. I actually like his SP a alot, but I think his free skate is just okay. I guess my problem with it, is that it seems like a program and music that anyone could skate to, whereas Blues I felt was something only Dai could pull off so magnificently. To me it seems "average", and Daisuke is far better than that. I can only wish him the best.

Yes, I also agree with you about Daisuke's this year programs. They are ok, the SP is more like him, but the LP even when he skated it clean at JO seemed a little bit dull, too common, beneath him, comparing to what we saw the last 3 years. And also that costume, Morozov costume:( Remember his very original outfit and programs from the Olympics. But I expect him to add some salt and pepper to his LP with time passing and maybe at worlds it will look better.
 

Niki2012

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 21, 2012
Kozuka deserved something more, surely 80+, but I think that Patrick's flow and skating ARE actually far batter than Kozuka, Oda and Hanyu and that he deserved 10 for SS, his ability in using those skates are just PERFECT! And, talking about Takahiko, I always find his programs really emotionless, boring sometimes... Well skated and with a good flow and choreography, yes, but non emotionally captivating... Is it just me? :slink:

I agree P Chan’s skating skill is better than three of them. But, I do not understand why he gets much higher scores on TR, PE, CC, and IN too. If they are closely related to SS, and a skater with high SS automatically gets higher scores on them, it is meaningless to have such elements. I like his program better than last season and he shows more emotions, but still to me only explanation he gets high PCS overall is his superiority in SS. I do not see much difference in other elements compared with other top skaters. They are so subjective and depend on their own taste. I find P’s program more boring than Kozuka although I am awed by his SS.:bow:
 
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