2012 Cup of Russia Men FS. | Page 6 | Golden Skate

2012 Cup of Russia Men FS.

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
It is completely illogical to look at Base Value before the positive or negative GOE is factored in and conclude that since Chan's BV is "5th(!) only"...what are you trying to say, exactly? :confused: The others had falls or landing errors that resulted in negative GOE, but that's not going to show up in a Base Value comparison.
I think it is fair to the extent that it is often argued that Chan has the most difficult programs and this justifies his scoring - but if you look at BVs, that's not usually the case. Now, you can argue that the difficulty in what he does lies to a large extent outside the elements. But the point still stands that he got a very good score considering the number of jumps he doubled.

OTOH, I can't work up any real indignation about it, since he clearly deserved to win considering the standard of his performance relative to the rest of the field. And V/T's overscore was far worse.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This statement doesn't make any sense. How I could "didn't want to" if I was speaking about 14 points of GOE plus to BV and therefore TES in general. BV is the most objective mark in the current judging system because it has lesser human factor involved. Surely when the skater doesn't challenge top class elements like 3A and ends up with double jumps, it's quite easy to get high GOE for safe elements.

You also conveniently forgot to count falls and hands down, step outs or edge calls, which you are very capable of counting when it is Patrick Chan who made those mistakes. :rolleye: None of the above can be reflected in the BV but there were plenty of those tonight. Chan's GOE is high in part because he made no deductible error whereas other skaters made several in their programs, including at least one fall from each of the top 5. Therefore, GOE in these cases are objective in that they properly reflected the deductible errors that have to be considered and a fall on jump usually produces around -3 for GOE, about 99% of the time.

What you are doing is quoting the protocol out of the context, in your very deliberate attempt to continue your infamous "inflation" allegation. Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of members here are quite knowledgeable. People here know for example, when Kozuka UR both of his Quads, including a fall on one of them, he may have relatively high BV for those attempts but he would also rightfully receive lesser GOE, plus a mandatory deduction that is not being reflected in the BV. So yes, you could make an argument his overall program was more difficult but it remains a paper tiger if he can't land them properly. I could load a program with Quad Flip, Quad Lutz and other Quads and my BV would look superb - only if it were so easy.

I don't know if you realize it but your continuous outrageous and verbal assaults on Patrick Chan has turned many otherwise ambivalent members who were previously indifferent re: Chan to sympathize with him. The fictional outrage really isn't working very well because people aren't stupid. Not a single soul here has contested the result but you can somehow dig the BV in an attempt to create a controversy when there is none to be found. Take my advice, just let it go, otherwise very soon, no one is going to take your posts seriously.
 

jaylee

Medalist
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
This statement doesn't make any sense. How I could "didn't want to" if I was speaking about 14 points of GOE plus to BV and therefore TES in general. BV is the most objective mark in the current judging system because it has lesser human factor involved. Surely when the skater doesn't challenge top class elements like 3A and ends up with double jumps, it's quite easy to get high GOE for safe elements.

BV only reflects the base value of jumps rotated and levels of spins/footwork done. It does not take into account execution. So saying that Patrick Chan had the 5th place BV and Oda and Kozuka had higher BV is meaningless because it doesn't reflect the fact that Oda and Kozuka fell. Overall, sure, they had more rotations in their jumps than Patrick to get that higher BV, but they didn't land all those jumps cleanly. BV is NOT the most objective mark in the judging system--by itself, it's not really a mark at all.

It's not at all unusual for one skater to have a higher BV than another skater, but the first skater with the higher BV makes multiple errors while the second skater skated cleanly. If PCS is similar for both, the second skater will have the higher TES and will deserve the higher placement.

Patrick got the highest GOE for his two quads--not safe elements at all.

I think it is fair to the extent that it is often argued that Chan has the most difficult programs and this justifies his scoring - but if you look at BVs, that's not usually the case. Now, you can argue that the difficulty in what he does lies to a large extent outside the elements. But the point still stands that he got a very good score considering the number of jumps he doubled.

But BV doesn't, by itself, reflect number of quads attempted, number of 3As, number of difficult combos, etc. A skater with a backloaded FS with no triple/triples can possiibly have a higher BV than a skater with a triple/triple at the beginning of his/her program. There are far more limitations in using BV to make an argument about the difficulty of a skater's performance than advantages.

Patrick's BV was lower than usual today because he doubled three intended triples--the axel, the loop, and the salchow (I could see him pause before the salchow, wondering if he should go for it). But he did what no other man did, which was land two sparkling quads. Comparing BV alone doesn't reflect how difficult that was. If landing two quads was so easy, why didn't any one else land them?
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Chan's GOE is high in part because he made no deductible error whereas other skaters made several in their programs, including at least one fall from each of the top 5.
Patrick would also have at least one fall if challenged 3A as others did. He knew that, so he didn't jump it. Skating safer elements like double jumps provided better GOE. BV says that his FS was not that technically difficult in the first place.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I think it is fair to the extent that it is often argued that Chan has the most difficult programs and this justifies his scoring - but if you look at BVs, that's not usually the case. Now, you can argue that the difficulty in what he does lies to a large extent outside the elements. But the point still stands that he got a very good score considering the number of jumps he doubled.

It has always been a trade off between popping a jump or rotate it but risk falling. Some people even suggested that the new CoP system overly rewards attempts over clean jumps. FYI, the doubles Chan did today lowered his BV by approximately 12 points today. That's a lot of points left on the table. Had he executed those jumps as planned, his BV would have been the highest by far. So his overall program is still one of the most difficult out there, without a doubt. Some other skaters like Javier Fernandez know that in order to compete with Chan, they have to do more, hence Fernandez has an even more ambitious program on paper - and Kozuka is in the same camp as well seeing his two Quads and two Triple Axels. The consequence of such high risk programs that these skaters are attempting is the higher likelihood that they will make errors. I sometimes wonder if Chan's talk about adding a 2nd type of Quad in his competitive repertoire is merely a strategic propaganda to psych out his closest competitiors, in order to push them to take even more risks - so much, that they just crush and burn. Realistically, if Chan does his two Quad toes and 7 Triples + 1 Double Axel cleanly, he will win Sochi Olympics. Does he need to add a 3rd Quad into his FS program? I can't see why that would be necessary. So I think Chan would be quite happy he doesn't have the highest planned BV out there and let others drive themselves crazy over this. People often don't realize Figure Skating is as much a strategic sport as much as an athletic one. In order to be the best, you have to use your mind as much as your body, or else Odaesque errors would be all over the place. Thankfully, most FS skaters are quite smart, only if one day, Oda can do the same.
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
MEN'S FREE SKATE - VIDEOS & RESULT (Updated)

1. Patrick CHAN (CAN) - 262.35 Free Skate
2. Takahiko KOZUKA (JPN) - 229.99
3. Michal BREZINA (CZE) - 224.56
4. Konstantin MENSHOV (RUS) - 223.72
5. Nobunari ODA (JPN) - 217.92 Free Skate
6. Richard DORNBUSH (USA) - 210.89
7. Artur GACHINSKI (RUS) - 209.84
8. Zhan BUSH (RUS) - 199.37
9. Denis TEN (KAZ) - 177.77
 

Ilvskating

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 30, 2010
Let's talk, please respect your own user name. I'm sure you understand the difference between "talk" and "attack". You have been attacking Patrick Chan, not talking about Chan or his programs. The very biased way of talking about a specific skater and lack of respect for other forum users is disgusting IMHO.
 

IleK

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
I have never liked Chan, especially last year. I didn't like his programs and the fact that he was winning everything with lots of mistakes and overscored PCS (please, I don't want to fight:)). And he was ruinining the competition, there was no fun watching when already knowing the winner. And he was very confident after each 3 or 4 falls program that he is going to win anyway because of his PCS. I am a Daisuke fan ( and this year I like all the japanese men), so Chan was the enemy. This year I first saw him at Japan Open with a poor skating and for my big surprise I kind of like his program and maybe I liked the fact that he didn't won and he got the right points. Then, at SC where I expected him to win with no doubts, I liked also his SP. And I also liked the fact that he didn't win, he didn't deserved it and it was Canada after all. So, I kind of sympathized with him. And I really but really disliked him last season. I still think his PCS are too high but I like his programs and costumes, he left a nice impression with the long today. Too bad for de double jumps but that shows that he is not perfect. I don't like jumping machines. They spoil the fun of competition.
Unfortunately, my favourite, Daisuke, unlike last year, doesn't have very good programs. The SP is ok, but LP... I wanna kill Morozov for that. I had a bad feeling about it since I first heard they would work together. But I trusted Dai that he knows what he is doing and will not let Morozov tell him what to do, beacuse there is nothing he can teach him, maybe the opposite. Anyway, I worry for Daisuke this season. But if Chan will be better, than I have nothing to say. I just hope he will not win again everything, it's nice to share:)
I am happy for Kozuka, I know he is always undescored, it is his curse and I don't know if it will ever change. But he is in GPF, he defeated Chan once, he should be happy. He skated well today, too bad for the quad, I like his LP, if he could just smile or do something with his face to join the beautiful expression of his body.
I am sad for Oda. My dream was a final with Chan and 5 japanese skaters:))
I hoped Menshov would medal, he is not my type but I admire him for his perseverence and nice jumps at his age. I thought he deserved a medal,especially for being the best russian in competition. But... I am also happy for Brezina. I hope she will get better from now on.
 

wonderlen3000

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
Well PChan get tired of peoples complaining him about winning with falls and triple splats, so he goes to a new approach. Winning with doubles jumps and inflated PCS. :laugh::laugh::laugh:
Look on the bright side, 3 doubles jumps is a huge improvement from 3 falls. LOL Expect to see his PCS hit 100, by world.
 

lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
What happened to Weir. I had a feeling in my gut that he might pull out but I didn't want to believe it.

I'm more of Dai, Taka fan but Chan's programs are so jam packed with choreography and transitions that it's just hard not to notice. So minus the programs where he falls several times and maybe last years worlds I totally get how he can dominate. Also his overall ss are pretty stellar. He just has this effortless glide going on.

Congrats to Chan and Taka
 
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Butterscotch17

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 26, 2012
I have never liked Chan, especially last year. I didn't like his programs and the fact that he was winning everything with lots of mistakes and overscored PCS (please, I don't want to fight:)). And he was ruinining the competition, there was no fun watching when already knowing the winner. And he was very confident after each 3 or 4 falls program that he is going to win anyway because of his PCS. I am a Daisuke fan ( and this year I like all the japanese men), so Chan was the enemy. This year I first saw him at Japan Open with a poor skating and for my big surprise I kind of like his program and maybe I liked the fact that he didn't won and he got the right points. Then, at SC where I expected him to win with no doubts, I liked also his SP. And I also liked the fact that he didn't win, he didn't deserved it and it was Canada after all. So, I kind of sympathized with him. And I really but really disliked him last season. I still think his PCS are too high but I like his programs and costumes, he left a nice impression with the long today. Too bad for de double jumps but that shows that he is not perfect. I don't like jumping machines. They spoil the fun of competition.
Unfortunately, my favourite, Daisuke, unlike last year, doesn't have very good programs. The SP is ok, but LP... I wanna kill Morozov for that. I had a bad feeling about it since I first heard they would work together. But I trusted Dai that he knows what he is doing and will not let Morozov tell him what to do, beacuse there is nothing he can teach him, maybe the opposite. Anyway, I worry for Daisuke this season. But if Chan will be better, than I have nothing to say. I just hope he will not win again everything, it's nice to share:)

I totally agree with you, and this is exactly how I felt last season about Chan, because, well, I'm an unforgiving Daisuke fan :) You first paragraph took the words right out of my mouth. I didn't like Chan winning everything when sometimes I didn't think the win was justified. However, I never hated Chan, and this season I find myself liking him a little bit more. Still not a fan, but I can appreciate his skating. His free skate is very good this season, and he no question deserved to win this competition.

Daisuke's programs aren't bad, he had a lot to live up to after his magnificent programs last year. I actually like his SP a alot, but I think his free skate is just okay. I guess my problem with it, is that it seems like a program and music that anyone could skate to, whereas Blues I felt was something only Dai could pull off so magnificently. To me it seems "average", and Daisuke is far better than that. I can only wish him the best.
 

Mao88

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 9, 2011
MEN'S FREE SKATE - VIDEOS & RESULT (Updated)

1. Patrick CHAN (CAN) - 262.35 Free Skate
2. Takahiko KOZUKA (JPN) - 229.99 Free Skate
3. Michal BREZINA (CZE) - 224.56 Free Skate
4. Konstantin MENSHOV (RUS) - 223.72
5. Nobunari ODA (JPN) - 217.92 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
6. Richard DORNBUSH (USA) - 210.89 Free Skate, 2nd Copy
7. Artur GACHINSKI (RUS) - 209.84 Free Skate
8. Zhan BUSH (RUS) - 199.37
9. Denis TEN (KAZ) - 177.77 Free Skate
 
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CdnSkateWatcher

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 21, 2010
You also conveniently forgot to count falls and hands down, step outs or edge calls, which you are very capable of counting when it is Patrick Chan who made those mistakes. :rolleye: None of the above can be reflected in the BV but there were plenty of those tonight. Chan's GOE is high in part because he made no deductible error whereas other skaters made several in their programs, including at least one fall from each of the top 5. Therefore, GOE in these cases are objective in that they properly reflected the deductible errors that have to be considered and a fall on jump usually produces around -3 for GOE, about 99% of the time.

What you are doing is quoting the protocol out of the context, in your very deliberate attempt to continue your infamous "inflation" allegation. Unfortunately for you, the vast majority of members here are quite knowledgeable. People here know for example, when Kozuka UR both of his Quads, including a fall on one of them, he may have relatively high BV for those attempts but he would also rightfully receive lesser GOE, plus a mandatory deduction that is not being reflected in the BV. So yes, you could make an argument his overall program was more difficult but it remains a paper tiger if he can't land them properly. I could load a program with Quad Flip, Quad Lutz and other Quads and my BV would look superb - only if it were so easy.

I don't know if you realize it but your continuous outrageous and verbal assaults on Patrick Chan has turned many otherwise ambivalent members who were previously indifferent re: Chan to sympathize with him. The fictional outrage really isn't working very well because people aren't stupid. Not a single soul here has contested the result but you can somehow dig the BV in an attempt to create a controversy when there is none to be found. Take my advice, just let it go, otherwise very soon, no one is going to take your posts seriously.

:agree::agree::yes::clap:
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Surely when the skater doesn't challenge top class elements like 3A and ends up with double jumps, it's quite easy to get high GOE for safe elements.

Although...Patrick got only 0.13 for his safe 2A, 0.13 for his safe 2LO and 0.30 for his safe 2S. If the jump's not there, no need to play macho man by forcing a 3A<< and falling.

Where he got his big GOEs was from his 4T+3T (2.14) and his solo 4T (2.71). No other skater did a quad combo, so I don't think we can say that Patrick backed away from the competition, even with the unsuccessful triple Axel.
 
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Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
It doesn't work like that. Kozuka's UR on quads IS reflected in BV as any UR or downgrades. That's what BV is about. And yeah, I am sure the majority of members here know that, unlike you :p. So, your attempt to call the opponent some unknowledgeable idiot ended up with looking at the mirror. :laugh:

Sorry to say that you've totally misinterpreted Wallylutz's original meaning.:p I don't blame you. I, myself, often misinterprete posts, too.;)

The BV could explain something but it could not bring the whole picture. As Wallylutz and many have already explained in details, in this case, it doesn't stand well by using only BV on arguing at which position the skaters, particularly Patrick, as you were aiming, should be.
 
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Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Oh, dear, look at Gachinski so far down on the list. This really hasn't been a good competition for Russian singles skaters, has it.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Congratulations to Chan, Kozuka, and Brezina! Very happy for Brezina!:clap: Chan and Kozuka (also Machida) are on to the GPF! Yay!!!!!!:party:

I have to say that I don't understand some of Kozuka's interpretation for the music. He often leaves the music aside and does something irrelevant. Deedee, you are right to worry about Kozuka's PCS because I think he's going to continue to get hammered on PCS based on this kind of music, interpretation, and choreography.

On the contrary, Patrick's music is magnetic! He skated with a lot of passion! Though I think Wilson's choreography was not perfect. Too many places with the same arm movements. But good enough to stand out in the crowd! Huge PCS, and rightfully earned!:thumbsup: Too many double jumps in his skating but oh, well, there is always next time. Glad he didn't lose his quad jumps. He wants to improve artistically. He has improved.

Haven't watched other skatings yet. Can't comment them.
 

rain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 29, 2003
Patrick's program is absolutely stunning. The big sweeping movements that go with the big sweeping music are perfect for him as a skater with his incredible speed and effortless flow across the ice. The whole thing just comes together beautifully.

He seems to be on track to peak later in the season (as he should), and I can't wait. He's never been an early season skater but each performance has been better than the last and I have high hopes that he'll have all of the technical down in a couple of months.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Patrick usually has his own agenda and schedule. He wanted to improve the artistry and he is bringing it and converting critics. In the CBC interview he said his goal for this event was to lay down the quads and so he did. With that in his pocket, next is to work on the later section of the program. Step by step, he is on his way to bringing us two amazing programs in late season.

Good work, Patrick. Stay on track.
 
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