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Thread: 2012 Cup of Russia Men FS.

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    Thank you, blue! I'm not surprised, 'cause I know that you liked last season's Daisuke (except his hair style, costume and that finger ).
    Well, those were part of his personalities.

    Anyway, I do respect tremendously for Takahashi as a person.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-12-2012 at 11:27 AM.

  2. #182
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    You are speaking with such disrespect and arrogance about the audience that I doubt that someone who paid for tickets, transportation, accomodation, and who felt the atmosphere of the live arena would ever share your view. Sofa specialists in front of free online streams pay nothing for this sport. Popularity directly means money. Strange that some people don't know that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I beg your pardon. I think that belittling the judges shows plainly about one's disrespect and arrogance.
    I think it's fine to criticize both the audience and the judges if one thinks their reactions to the skating they see are out of line. For instance, looking at CoR: can we agree that the judges in the pairs event were overly generous in scoring the top two pairs, especially V/T? Why not criticize this, then, and point out where they were wrong (a +3 on a two footed throw landing?!). Conversely, sometimes it's also fine to question the behavior of the audience; one example is the booing of Patrick Chan at last season's Worlds. It's fine to say that was not appropriate behavior if one feels that way (do you know who also thinks it was out of line and said so? Brian Joubert).

    It doesn't matter how much training judges have had or how much time and money the audience spent. People are not infallible and can be criticized. The key is to do so without descending to nastiness and hyperbole.

    In the current CoP era, I've found plenty of personalities. To name a few top ones: Daisuke Takahashi (Don't be surprised that I said so. I do believe it), Evgeni Plushenko, Jeremy Abbott, Brian Joubert, Patrick Chan, Florent Amodio, Yuzuru Hanyu... and more.
    Takahashi, Plushenko and Joubert all got their start under 6.0, and I would argue that the latter two remain 6.0 skaters at heart, with some needed adjustments to the current system: strong jumps and great showmanship are something that's important to them. There aren't many 6.0-oriented skaters left, and I think people respond to that style, when it's done well. Sometimes you want a skater to wow you by really being entertaining and putting on a great show, rather than with the number of transitions they can pack into a program (though Takahashi, when he has good programs, can sometimes do both).

  3. #183
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    I just finished watching the men's freeskate (taped it while I was at work) and, sorry to say, I thought most of the men were pretty boring with the exception of Patrick Chan. I felt like I was watching pretty much the same program - only the costumes (!!!!) and the faces were changed. It's not all about the jumps! Some of these guys needs to skate to their music and not just go thru the motions of throwing an arm up or doing a wiggle in their footwork. I was underwhelmed.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I think it's fine to criticize both the audience and the judges if one thinks their reactions to the skating they see are out of line. For instance, looking at CoR: can we agree that the judges in the pairs event were overly generous in scoring the top two pairs, especially V/T? Why not criticize this, then, and point out where they were wrong (a +3 on a two footed throw landing?!).
    Questioning the marks from the judges was not what I was refering to when I said "belittling", "disrespect", and "arrogance".
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-13-2012 at 10:36 PM.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by emdee View Post
    I do agree with the difference between online and live arena. When I used to watch online or on TV I enjoyed a number of skaters like Dai, Kozuka and many others. But, only when I saw Patrick Chan live and watched those magic feet in action did I realize where his superiority to other skaters on the circuit lies. Other skaters needed several pushes to get from one end of the arena - Patrick only needed two. His glide is unparalled IMO.
    I agree with this wholeheartedly. I always enjoyed and admired Patrick Chan's skating, but when I saw him live I was absolutely speechless. He's the kind of skater you could just watch stroke for hours — the way he moves across the ice is something very, very special.

    There have been other skaters that even more so I didn't really get until I saw them live. Yu Na Kim was another such for me.

    And as a whole discipline, I'd say that pairs suffers from not being seen live. It is extremely impressive live and you really get that edge-of-your-seat feeling with the big tricks.

    Also dance — when seen live, the difference in speed and flow across the ice between the top teams and the rest is really noticeable, far more so than just on a screen.

  6. #186
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    deedee, what was your favourite Lambiel program? Your favourite Buttle program? The reason I'm asking is because many of their programs are considered COP peaks - Naqoyqaatsi, Ararat, Rachmaninov, Adios Noninos, Poeta, Blood Diamond, Vivaldi......

    Forbes stated that Lysacek earned 2.5 million dollars in endorsements, appearance fees, etc the year after his Olympic victory.

    I think in terms of stars, there were two things going for the 6.0 era. An equal emphasis on artistry/presentation (now it's relegated to less than a third of the mark) means that they can be more superficially entertaining and still score well. I also think COP is harder on the body in terms of injuries, so the era of skaters really excelling over two or three Olympic quads is a thing of the past. So it's more difficult to acquire that body of work that the past greats had.

  7. #187
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I think in terms of stars, there were two things going for the 6.0 era. An equal emphasis on artistry/presentation (now it's relegated to less than a third of the mark) means that they can be more superficially entertaining and still score well. I also think COP is harder on the body in terms of injuries, so the era of skaters really excelling over two or three Olympic quads is a thing of the past. So it's more difficult to acquire that body of work that the past greats had.
    So 6.0 artistry is low-brow and IJS artistry is high-brow?

    I know it's conventional wisdom that CoP is harder on the body and shortens careers, but I think the reverse may be true: there are a lot of old-timers currently competing - even Patrick Chan is a veteran! - and the skaters who do get injured aren't necessarily hurt on IJS-style elements. For instance: Dai's ACL injury happened on a bad 3A attempt, while Yretha Silete suffered a similar injury in a practice collision this past summer. Chan's one serious injury, the muscle tear in the Olympic season, has been linked with the effects of H1N1 (IIRC). Joubert spiked his blade into his foot on 3Lz attempts, Plushenko's knee issue predate the current system, Aliona Savchenko was hurt last year training a throw, and so on. Of course there are some repetitive strain injuries, but on the whole, I get the sense that the increased emphasis on footwork, spins, and correct technique is actually extending careers rather than shortening them.

    Except maybe in dance, with the crazy contorted lifts the IJS pretty much requires.
    Last edited by Buttercup; 11-12-2012 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #188
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    re artistry: Pretty much.

  9. #189
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.

  10. #190
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    I think the Olympic games are and will be judged differently from the ISU's own events, like the world championships. At worlds, no one is watching except other skaters. At the Olympics, a billion people are watching. You cannot give the gold medal to someone who falls -- not with a billion people watching.

    That is what I was getting at in predicting Chan's preparation. I think he has set aside this year to work on his second mark skills, having already got the SS and TR part down Pat. He does not have to do any more jumps beyond the layout of his current programs. All he has to do is rotate them and not fall. He can accomplish this by cutting back on the fancy entrances, footwork, and moves in the field. This will not affect his PCSs very much, and he will still outpoint competitors like Fernandez with three quads in the LP and Hanyu with two quads and two triple Axels. (JMO.)

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.
    I could not agree more with every word in your post Buttercup. I think the only advantage to the current judging rules is that a person CAN come back from a fall or whatever. I can remember listening to Dick Button under the 6.0 era drone on forever the minute a skater made a mistake that it was all over for them. The used to frustrate me so much and it ruined the enjoyment of the skate. The comment about "paint by number programs" was what I was referring to in watching the men's freeskate this weekend.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.
    What i miss most are the basic gliding moves that comprise the heart and soul of figure skating.

    Here is the last short program contested under 6.0. Give the audience what it came for. What they came for is this sequence of four spirals (never mind that she did nothing but back crossovers and front crossovers entering the sequence).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc#t=1m40s

    And while we're at it, this is a layback spin front he same program. Nary an ugly change of position or change of edge to mar its beauty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI-cbt1u1uc#t=1m20s

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    We will have to agree to disagree. I think skaters had a lot more opportunities to be adventurous in their choreo and program concepts under the old system. Not all of them took advantage of this freedom, but at least the possibility existed. But now everything feels so constrained with the IJS requirements and the unfree free skate; non-stop transitions are not a substitute for artistry, and neither are contorted lifts. Technical skill can facilitate artistic expression, but that doesn't mean it always does. I feel like I'm watching a lot of paint by numbers programs, even at the highest level. Maybe especially at the highest level, because the skaters are so concerned about squeezing every last point out of their programs.
    I would love to actually examine a season under 6.0 and see what you mean. But more than that, I don't believe that artistic expression is intrinsically superior to technical skin (that old saw). Mathman can cite examples until the end of time, and I'll cite counter examples, but that'll get us nowhere fast. I know I'm more thrilled by Kim's Roxanne steps than Cohen's Malaguena spiral because of that command.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I would love to actually examine a season under 6.0 and see what you mean. But more than that, I don't believe that artistic expression is intrinsically superior to technical skin (that old saw). Mathman can cite examples until the end of time, and I'll cite counter examples, but that'll get us nowhere fast. I know I'm more thrilled by Kim's Roxanne steps than Cohen's Malaguena spiral because of that command.
    I don't believe either is superior - I think in the best competitive performances, they compliment each other and can be of equal importance. But our starting point here was your contention that IJS artistry was more sophisticated/interesting/whatever adjective you want than 6.0 artistry, so I'm not sure how the question of technical mastery is relevant, unless it enables better artistic expression. And I don't think it necessarily does; that's up to the skaters and their choreographers.

    Our excellent thread-jacking abilities strike again

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the Olympic games are and will be judged differently from the ISU's own events, like the world championships. At worlds, no one is watching except other skaters. At the Olympics, a billion people are watching. You cannot give the gold medal to someone who falls -- not with a billion people watching.

    That is what I was getting at in predicting Chan's preparation. I think he has set aside this year to work on his second mark skills, having already got the SS and TR part down Pat. He does not have to do any more jumps beyond the layout of his current programs. All he has to do is rotate them and not fall. He can accomplish this by cutting back on the fancy entrances, footwork, and moves in the field. This will not affect his PCSs very much, and he will still outpoint competitors like Fernandez with three quads in the LP and Hanyu with two quads and two triple Axels. (JMO.)
    It's possible. Although there will be no room for the error if Hanyu, Takahashi, Plushenko, or Fernandez had a skate of their lifetime. If Patrick cannot have 4S or 4F ready in time, this is the way he has to play.

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