2012 Cup of Russia Free Dance

[blackswanphoto]

Now that I've seen all programs from the Zoueva group, I actually feel a bit angry. It seems clear that once again, V/M got Zoueva's best effort by far. Meryl & Charlie and the Shibs got the leftovers, creatively. There have been rumors for so long that Marina favors V/M, and I am now more inclined than ever to believe it. I think D/W and the Shibs should at least give some serious consideration to another coach next season.

I could not agree more. Marina is starting to make really good teams look really bad. The past two seasons the Shibutani's have not made any progress. NONE! Instead they are slipping backwards. When I saw Davis and White FD at Skate America, my first thought was "What the hell is this". I could not believe she gave such a great team a program like that. They performed the hell out of this program, but it does not fit them at all. And the music cuts are so abrupt and awful!

On the other hand she put every ounce of her being into VM Carmen program. This is quite obvious. The problem is VM are not good enough technically to perform such a program without it looking labored. It's just too much going on there.

[golden411]

The Shibs really do need to get away from Marina. If they stay in Canton they are going to keep getting what they deserve and the judges are punishing them accordingly.

Aside from whatever faith the Shibutanis have in Zoueva, they seem to place a lot of importance on training alongside Virtue/Moir and Davis/White -- not only as a matter of friendship and moral support, but also as a source of motivation and an opportunity to observe the best in the world on a daily basis.
Not saying that the Shibutanis would not be better off with another coach, but I think that they would think long and hard before giving up V/M and D/W as training mates. (If V/M or D/W decided to leave Zoueva, the Shibs would have to reassess.)

Now that I've seen all programs from the Zoueva group, I actually feel a bit angry. It seems clear that once again, V/M got Zoueva's best effort by far. Meryl & Charlie and the Shibs got the leftovers, creatively. There have been rumors for so long that Marina favors V/M, and I am now more inclined than ever to believe it. I think D/W and the Shibs should at least give some serious consideration to another coach next season.

"Once again"? Last season, a widespread (although not unanimous) opinion was that Die Fledermaus was Zoueva's best effort.

[Olympia]

I certainly thought that Fledermaus was one of the best, most evocative routines I'd ever seen, and I continue to think so. But now that I've finally seen V/M's Carmen, I'd put it up there among the great works of ice dance art. I guess you can design only ne of those in a season. (Most choreographers can manage only one in a lifetime.) Wow, wow, wow! For one thing, I love the parts of the music that she chose, including the Flower Song. I also love that both skaters wear all black, instead of having Tessa in the more cliched red. She looks eye-poppingly gorgeous in black. (Heck, Scott looks eye-poppingly gorgeous in black.) This Carmen, along with Die Fledermaus, is an artistic experience.

That one-armed candlestick lift...oh, my word.

[all that]

I could not agree more. Marina is starting to make really good teams look really bad. The past two seasons the Shibutani's have not made any progress. NONE! Instead they are slipping backwards. When I saw Davis and White FD at Skate America, my first thought was "What the hell is this". I could not believe she gave such a great team a program like that. They performed the hell out of this program, but it does not fit them at all. And the music cuts are so abrupt and awful!

On the other hand she put every ounce of her being into VM Carmen program. This is quite obvious. The problem is VM are not good enough technically to perform such a program without it looking labored. It's just too much going on there.

Totally disagree. D/W's SD is the best SD this season, by a mile. My only issue with it is whether they can truly perform it to its potential. There are little bits of choreography in that SD that show a beautiful ballet character...but unfortunately, neither Meryl nor Charlie perform them as well as they could. Maybe that's why Alex Wong visited them recently? Who knows.

D/W's original FD was a Sinatra program, and they switched to Notre Dame late in the season. By the time NHK rolls around, they'll have lots of time to have worked on it, so I'm expecting to see something fabulous.

Shibs had to change programs late in the game as well, so their SD is looking rough. I thought their FD was good. It was unfortunate that Alex was injured. Once he's healthy, I think it will really shine.

[verte76]

I'll be watching this soon.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Aside from whatever faith the Shibutanis have in Zoueva, they seem to place a lot of importance on training alongside Virtue/Moir and Davis/White -- not only as a matter of friendship and moral support, but also as a source of motivation and an opportunity to observe the best in the world on a daily basis.
Not saying that the Shibutanis would not be better off with another coach, but I think that they would think long and hard before giving up V/M and D/W as training mates. (If V/M or D/W decided to leave Zoueva, the Shibs would have to reassess.)

Maybe, but it's very likely that D/W and V/M will retire before the Shibs (V/M for sure aren't going past Sochi). I think the "thinking long and hard" is something they're gonna have to do pretty soon.

[missysays]

Maybe, but it's very likely that D/W and V/M will retire before the Shibs (V/M for sure aren't going past Sochi). I think the "thinking long and hard" is something they're gonna have to do pretty soon.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what the Shibs decide after Sochi. I really don't see them making a change before then though.

If they decide to stay in until 2018 and Pyeongchang, they will need to see if Marina Z alone will still meet their competitive needs. I would have them go to Igor for technical training and technical choreography (to keep their levels up) and go back to Tom Dickson for their program concepts, musical selection, and artistic choreography.

I really enjoyed all of the programs they had when he was choreographing for them. I feel like Marina doesn't quite know what to do with them artistically.

In fact, wasn't Memoirs of Geisha originally conceived of by Tom Dickson? He gave them really sharply conceived pieces with a point of view that made their skating have an impact even at that young of an age. While under Marina and Igor, they've had more traditional, classical pieces that have really flattened out the impact of their routines and while lovely sometimes have come across as kind of bland.

[mikiandorocks]

Unlike most people here (from what I read), I do enjoy the FD of Elena and Nikita. It looked different and suits their style of skating. Off course that I have a bit of question marks about the spoken words in the music with the dialogues going on, just like I had question marks on Anissina & Peizerat skating to a speach in 02. While watching the FD I happened to be in the company of two friends that don't usually follow skating but are very big fans of the movie "Ghost". They immediatly reacted to Elena and Nikita and were almost in tears. I've never seen that film so I don't have a clue if the choreography reflects the film or not but I enjoyed it. I also haven't seen the musical so I don't have a reference of it. From an artistic point of view it was nice to see a character driven program. It had that little extra about it that reminded me of the 90's but in a fresh way. I'll try to watch again soon to see if my impression of it improves or not. Meanwhile let's enjoy this video of Morozov made while Elena and Nikita were skating (it's hilarious): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9fdFWGkmg

[ImaginaryPogue]

Sorry. Ghost the movie is good for Whoopi Goldburg's performance. Ghost the musical makes Phantom of the Opera look like Beethoven, it's light pop banality so redolent of the worst of musical theatre. This program was ghastly. That stated, they looked quite crisp (excluding the fall). But a terrible terrible program. Egads.

I don't mind spoken words, but I think that you need to treat the words like music - that is, interpret the aural shapes they conjure, not just mere story. Stephane Lambiel's "Ne Me Quitte Pas" is perhaps the best demonstration of what I'm thinking of. Or anything V/M has done that had words.

[dorispulaski]

Have V&M done anything with spoken words rather than sung words? Maybe in an exhibition? I don't remember a case in a competitive program.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Have V&M done anything with spoken words rather than sung words? Maybe in an exhibition? I don't remember a case in a competitive program.

True enough. I was thinking of sung words there, but I do think that spoken words still need to be treated as music, not story, first.

[Mathman]

I think it would be cool to do a program to just spoken words, no music.

I have a recording of Robert Frost reading The Road Not Taken that I could donate.

[WeakAnkles]

It's been done quite a lot in dance. Actually one famous example would be ntozake shange's for colored girls who have considered suicide when the rainbow/is enuf, which, while it isn't specifically a "dance" piece per se, is subtitled "a choreopoem." The play does contain music, but there are large sections where the poems are choreographed without it. But given the conservative nature of ice skating judging, I am sure it would be extremely divisive. A pity, no?

[Olympia]

I recall that Robin Cousins did a lovely spoken word program as a pro skater. Here it is, I think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfzfqDVya_A

[golden411]

Maybe, but it's very likely that D/W and V/M will retire before the Shibs (V/M for sure aren't going past Sochi). I think the "thinking long and hard" is something they're gonna have to do pretty soon.

Yeah, it will be interesting to see what the Shibs decide after Sochi. I really don't see them making a change before then though.

I think we're all on the same page. Never say never, but I agree that the Shibutanis are unlikely to switch coaches before the Sochi Games. Of course, what the Shibs decide to do after the Olympics could be another story entirely.
As we all know, after last season ended, they had to choose between Shpilband or Zoueva. If they had any misgivings about her, they had the perfect opportunity then to cordially take their leave and make a fresh start without her. But they concluded that she was the right coach for them.