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Thread: 2012 Cup of Russia Free Dance

  1. #211
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Igor mentioned that Meryl emails him, congratulations on the success of his skaters etc, but it is social/friendly (as far as we know).
    Ah, that makes sense. Neither D/W nor the Shibs strike me as folks that would completely burn ties with old coaches. I don't know about V/M, but there was some mention that they were uneasy about seeing Igor at SC, so perhaps there's more tension there for whatever reason?

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackswanphoto View Post
    I mostly agree. Davis and White are pretty much screwed at this point. And they will not beat VM in Canada with that ugly FD Marina gave them.
    It must be reassuring to know the future. Do you use Tarot cards or crystal ball?

  3. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    V/M practice

    They aborted the candlestick lift and the rotational lift afterwards looks like it was impeded by I/K (who apparently were quite aggressive during practices, according to one reporter over at FSU).
    I loved the tilt of Scott's head waiting at the boards for the caterwauling of I/K's program to end before he and Tessa could start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    I think the Shibs have a great FD this year...she has matured so much (in a good way) and if he was healthy I think they would have moved up into podium position with it. the SD is kind of odd....they would have pulled off a traditional polka/waltz very easily, and should have just gone that route instead of trying too hard to be original.
    Well, said. I agree that they would have rocked a traditional polka/waltz. I don't think the new one does them any favors- it's too late to change between now and NHK though. According to Alex's instagram, they're on their way to Japan now. Hopefully, a rest this next week will do him some good. He responded to a comment that he's "doing everything I can to get better."

    Good luck to them!

  4. #214
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by missysays View Post
    Well, said. I agree that they would have rocked a traditional polka/waltz. I don't think the new one does them any favors- it's too late to change between now and NHK though. According to Alex's instagram, they're on their way to Japan now. Hopefully, a rest this next week will do him some good. He responded to a comment that he's "doing everything I can to get better."

    Good luck to them!
    So wait you don't think they bought Mary Poppins outfits as backup? Sorry I keep harping on this, but I guess I just want the Italian commentators to go crazy and say "Mary Poppins again?!"

    On a more serious note, I hope Alex reecovers -- I'd like to see that dance done with Alex healthy and not suffering though it. It seems that Alex has had to suffer through FDs (4CC, Worlds, COR).

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyria View Post
    Now that I've seen all programs from the Zoueva group, I actually feel a bit angry. It seems clear that once again, V/M got Zoueva's best effort by far. Meryl & Charlie and the Shibs got the leftovers, creatively. There have been rumors for so long that Marina favors V/M, and I am now more inclined than ever to believe it. I think D/W and the Shibs should at least give some serious consideration to another coach next season.
    Last season many many people were saying Zoueva gave her best to D&W and were angry with what she gave V&M. Believed that Marina gave D&W the best because Meryl was dating Fedor. It seems in so many ways these two teams swap back and forth.

    What I think.

    Last year D&W were supposed to skate La Strada and the USFSA didn't like it and made them change it. All a bit last minute and fortunately Zoueva had in her mind a program she wanted them to skate to for a long time that they refused, were not interested. They find themselves in a situation where they are in a way desperate for a new FD and therefore much easier for Marina to sell them a program she has already imagined in her mind. She was right, Die Fledermaus suited them beautifully and made a huge impact with fans. This year at some point they dumped their Sinatra FD and had to start from scratch, it would seem this year Meryl picked the alternative, music she loved and we get Notre Dame.

    Last year Tessa got music she loved, Funny Face, which was as well received initially as Notre Dame was for D&W ie..not well. This year they had in mind to use Carmen for the SD but were told by someone in ISU it was unacceptable for the polka. Having already played with the idea and music it is decided to switch it out for their FD. It comes to light this is a program idea Marina has tried to sell them for a number of years which they refused. Just as D&W refused DF. Recent interviews tell us it took all summer to make this program and Marina says she pulled in Jennifer Swan to make it less typical. So I believe it's Swan that gave it the quality we are seeing now, before Swan Marina says it was too typical.

    What is the common factor here? In a pinch Marina seems to know what to do to bring her teams up competition. Last year in a pinch she gets D&W to skate DF and this year she gets V&M to do Carmen for a SD which likely made it much easier for them to accept as a FD. In both cases Marina's vision of D&W doing a great DF and Tessa being great as Carmen were correct. I don't think it's so much favouritism (unless she decides to swap years she plays favours in which case 2014 is D&W's turn ) but rather Marina doing well in a pinch.


    Perhaps Marina also allowed Swan in because she was swamped with trying to sort out the three teams, at least two of which have program changes through the off season and likely three (something went on with Shibs SD which was supposed to be MaryPoppins??). I suspect Notre Dame, Carman, Shibs SD have/had very little mileage and runthroughs as all were probably ready late, which is why I'm not ready to write off any of them just yet. Now that they have the basic bones of their programs sorted and have gotten feedback on the levels it's practice, practice, practice and I don't think ANY of these teams need Igor around to practice hard. What makes these teams as good as they are is their own work ethic and drive.

  6. #216
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAS View Post
    Last season many many people were saying Zoueva gave her best to D&W and were angry with what she gave V&M. Believed that Marina gave D&W the best because Meryl was dating Fedor. It seems in so many ways these two teams swap back and forth.

    What I think.

    Last year D&W were supposed to skate La Strada and the USFSA didn't like it and made them change it. All a bit last minute and fortunately Zoueva had in her mind a program she wanted them to skate to for a long time that they refused, were not interested. They find themselves in a situation where they are in a way desperate for a new FD and therefore much easier for Marina to sell them a program she has already imagined in her mind. She was right, Die Fledermaus suited them beautifully and made a huge impact with fans. This year at some point they dumped their Sinatra FD and had to start from scratch, it would seem this year Meryl picked the alternative, music she loved and we get Notre Dame.

    Last year Tessa got music she loved, Funny Face, which was as well received initially as Notre Dame was for D&W ie..not well. This year they had in mind to use Carmen for the SD but were told by someone in ISU it was unacceptable for the polka. Having already played with the idea and music it is decided to switch it out for their FD. It comes to light this is a program idea Marina has tried to sell them for a number of years which they refused. Just as D&W refused DF. Recent interviews tell us it took all summer to make this program and Marina says she pulled in Jennifer Swan to make it less typical. So I believe it's Swan that gave it the quality we are seeing now, before Swan Marina says it was too typical.

    What is the common factor here? In a pinch Marina seems to know what to do to bring her teams up competition. Last year in a pinch she gets D&W to skate DF and this year she gets V&M to do Carmen for a SD which likely made it much easier for them to accept as a FD. In both cases Marina's vision of D&W doing a great DF and Tessa being great as Carmen were correct. I don't think it's so much favouritism (unless she decides to swap years she plays favours in which case 2014 is D&W's turn ) but rather Marina doing well in a pinch.


    Perhaps Marina also allowed Swan in because she was swamped with trying to sort out the three teams, at least two of which have program changes through the off season and likely three (something went on with Shibs SD which was supposed to be MaryPoppins??). I suspect Notre Dame, Carman, Shibs SD have/had very little mileage and runthroughs as all were probably ready late, which is why I'm not ready to write off any of them just yet. Now that they have the basic bones of their programs sorted and have gotten feedback on the levels it's practice, practice, practice and I don't think ANY of these teams need Igor around to practice hard. What makes these teams as good as they are is their own work ethic and drive.
    Great post! Glad to see logical and thoughtful conclusions rather some of this knee jerk reactions some people seem to have.

    Speaking of work ethic, when I read to Shibs' ISU bio to figure out why they were not dressed to skate a Mary Poppins SD and it notes that they train 40 hours a week. That's like a full-time job! And they're going to school too.....they must be good time managers...

    In case anyone was wondering V/M work 30-35 hours a week and D/W work 29-31 hours a week. It says Sinitsina/Zhiganshin have work up to 54 hours a week during the summer.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 11-12-2012 at 05:09 PM.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    It says Sinitsina/Zhiganshin have work up to 54 hours a week during the summer.

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    I read elsewhere that Tessa said that after Marina choreographed the program they felt it was too generic so they brought in Swan who had done the Pink Floyd program.

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    Well, ISU bios are interesting...I highly doubt that Sinitsina/Zhiganshin pull in 50+ hours a week during the summer - if so that means that they are also training full time on the weekends with no rest days...hmmm Mr. Shpilband would doubt this....

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by heyhey View Post
    Well, ISU bios are interesting...I highly doubt that Sinitsina/Zhiganshin pull in 50+ hours a week during the summer - if so that means that they are also training full time on the weekends with no rest days...hmmm Mr. Shpilband would doubt this....
    It seem like a lot, but it said something about "summer camps." So perhaps they pull in extra time during those summer camp weeks. Or perhaps it's just one or two weeks a year. They're probably along the lines of 35 hours a week most times.....

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    I actually like both programs from I/K. The SD is in a better shape than the FD. The FD is a bit raw now I believe in part because of her injury. It has a nice fresh light feel to it. I'll curious to see how it develops over the season. If they're going to experiment why not this year. All the best to them. As per the rivalry with BS I say that's a distraction. The real big picture is the depth of russian ice dance that will erupt soon with S/Z, St/Bu, B/S and I/K..who knows I might be missing a few others. All the best to them I just like ice dancing, it's my favourite discipline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    I have seen so little skating this season - schedule not permitting to watch much. But, I did want to say that I really agree with you here! Last year, I think because it was Tessa's first year supposedly pain free and healthy, I just rooted for V/M the whole season even though I didn't love their FD music - I 'got it' and appreciated it a lot intellectually, but didn't feel it emotionally the way they seemed too (and perhaps other fans did). It wasn't until after worlds that I really let myself re-watch D/W's FD, which I did love all season. And after the season, I just felt so strongly that their FD was just simply the best and I do wish in hindsight that they had won Worlds with it (and this is just IMHO, not trying to start a fight....just saying that i really, really loved it).

    That said, and repeating that I have hardly watched any skating this season, I have rewatched V/M's Carmen from Skate Canada and Russia a number of times and I am just so, so, so taken in by it. It is remarkable - again, imho.
    I'm with you. When I saw last season's programs I was immediately more taken with D/W Die Fledermaus and wasn't sure about V/M's program at all. However, it seemed as the season progressed, D/W's program stayed the same & appeared a little frantic & sloppy at times, while V/M's program continued to evolve & become a masterpiece. As for people saying that the Shibs & D/W are being "given" programs/music inferior to V/M - I think that's erroneous. No team is given music -- its a collaboration between coach & team. In a recent D/W interview Meryl said she has always wanted to skate to Notre Dame & it will no doubt improve a great deal. The Shibs: I love their program & their clean lines, edges but the field is very deep so to get noticed they are going to have to really up the chemistry, difficulty. Sometimes IMHO they look a little junior still. Maybe he's still injured a little?

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAS View Post
    Last season many many people were saying Zoueva gave her best to D&W and were angry with what she gave V&M. Believed that Marina gave D&W the best because Meryl was dating Fedor. It seems in so many ways these two teams swap back and forth.

    What I think.

    Last year D&W were supposed to skate La Strada and the USFSA didn't like it and made them change it. All a bit last minute and fortunately Zoueva had in her mind a program she wanted them to skate to for a long time that they refused, were not interested. They find themselves in a situation where they are in a way desperate for a new FD and therefore much easier for Marina to sell them a program she has already imagined in her mind. She was right, Die Fledermaus suited them beautifully and made a huge impact with fans. This year at some point they dumped their Sinatra FD and had to start from scratch, it would seem this year Meryl picked the alternative, music she loved and we get Notre Dame.

    Last year Tessa got music she loved, Funny Face, which was as well received initially as Notre Dame was for D&W ie..not well. This year they had in mind to use Carmen for the SD but were told by someone in ISU it was unacceptable for the polka. Having already played with the idea and music it is decided to switch it out for their FD. It comes to light this is a program idea Marina has tried to sell them for a number of years which they refused. Just as D&W refused DF. Recent interviews tell us it took all summer to make this program and Marina says she pulled in Jennifer Swan to make it less typical. So I believe it's Swan that gave it the quality we are seeing now, before Swan Marina says it was too typical.

    What is the common factor here? In a pinch Marina seems to know what to do to bring her teams up competition. Last year in a pinch she gets D&W to skate DF and this year she gets V&M to do Carmen for a SD which likely made it much easier for them to accept as a FD. In both cases Marina's vision of D&W doing a great DF and Tessa being great as Carmen were correct. I don't think it's so much favouritism (unless she decides to swap years she plays favours in which case 2014 is D&W's turn ) but rather Marina doing well in a pinch.


    Perhaps Marina also allowed Swan in because she was swamped with trying to sort out the three teams, at least two of which have program changes through the off season and likely three (something went on with Shibs SD which was supposed to be MaryPoppins??). I suspect Notre Dame, Carman, Shibs SD have/had very little mileage and runthroughs as all were probably ready late, which is why I'm not ready to write off any of them just yet. Now that they have the basic bones of their programs sorted and have gotten feedback on the levels it's practice, practice, practice and I don't think ANY of these teams need Igor around to practice hard. What makes these teams as good as they are is their own work ethic and drive.
    CAS - thanks for all the great insight and busting of the favoritism myths floating around.

  14. #224
    Missing Tdizzle and SDiggity golden411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by all that View Post
    D/W and Shibs could easily move to Igor if they want. He's not that far from Canton and they've worked with him for years, so it wouldn't be a huge shock. In fact, since they are keeping in touch with him anyway, they could all easily be planning their Olympic programs with him as we speak.
    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Igor mentioned that Meryl emails him, congratulations on the success of his skaters etc, but it is social/friendly (as far as we know).
    I believe that Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, and the Shibutanis all felt a strong personal attachment to Shpilband -- as they do to Zoueva. But the skaters (to their credit) seem determined to steer clear of the bad blood between the coaches. I doubt that Zoueva would give her blessing to collaboration with Shpilband, and the skaters surely recognize that going behind her back would only stir up more unwanted drama. I agree with IP that any contact with Shpilband is a continuation of their friendship, not of their professional relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    .... Neither D/W nor the Shibs strike me as folks that would completely burn ties with old coaches. I don't know about V/M, but there was some mention that they were uneasy about seeing Igor at SC, so perhaps there's more tension there for whatever reason?
    I think that V/M too would make a point of preserving their friendship with Shpilband.
    Was "uneasy" a direct quote from them? That is not a snarky question; I ask because I did not catch the primary reporting on this point.

    I did see the video of Shpilband hugging V/M after the SCI medal ceremony, and if the Canadians felt any uneasiness on the inside, they did not show it on the outside.

    I recall that V/M wrote in their book that at their first competition after leaving Paul MacIntosh, they felt some initial awkwardness (a totally different nuance than uneasiness). They sounded wistful that they had to skate right past MacIntosh at the boards and break their comfortable habit of turning to him for advice and support.
    It did not seem to be a matter of tension, but of separation anxiety (even though it was their choice to change coaches). They missed him.
    The good news is that the awkwardness was only temporary, and V/M remain close to MacIntosh.

    The book also described how especially Virtue needed time getting used to training in Canton on a permanent basis. (MacIntosh previously had sent V/M to Zoueva for temporary training.) Virtue would have felt disloyal to MacIntosh if she had instantaneously embraced the new arrangement.

    If anything, I suspect that V/M were glad that Shpilband needed to be in Windsor too -- so that they would have a chance to see him without going out of their way (i.e., without any risk of ruffling Zoueva's feathers).
    Last edited by golden411; 11-18-2012 at 11:20 AM.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    I actually like both programs from I/K. The SD is in a better shape than the FD. The FD is a bit raw now I believe in part because of her injury. It has a nice fresh light feel to it. I'll curious to see how it develops over the season. If they're going to experiment why not this year. All the best to them. As per the rivalry with BS I say that's a distraction. The real big picture is the depth of russian ice dance that will erupt soon with S/Z, St/Bu, B/S and I/K..who knows I might be missing a few others. All the best to them I just like ice dancing, it's my favourite discipline.
    Welcome to Golden Skate! bramweld!

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