What makes you say so? Have some respect to the skater, and the choreographer.
NRW Trophy 2012. Dortmund, December 5th-9th 2012.
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What makes you say so? Have some respect to the skater, and the choreographer.
I'm back from Dortmund and this thread has gained 10 pages.Half of South Korea attended NRW Trophy it seems. Watching figure skating live is much more draining than I thought. I was utterly exhausted after Saturday was over. There were so many skaters, and I watched them all! On Saturday I saw S/S live for the first time. I don't know, if it was the program, the exhaustion or just them, but I wasn't as impressed as I thought I would be. Maybe Aljona was still not a 100% healthy. Thank good they changed the FS costume as well, even though I don't really like the combi of her unitard with a skirt.
Someone wrote that Yuna looked thin, and I have to agree, seeing her in person, she seems extremely frail and delicate. I never saw her before, though, so it might be she always looks this way. Fame like hers comes with a price, I guess. She was always followed by a huge crowd by everything she did. People in the audience were mainly Koreans and once she came into the venue, even the skater currently on the ice was quickly forgotten. Of course, she and Jin Seo Kim were the only skaters bombarded with presents. I liked her FS dress. It may look plain on pictures, but it was so beautiful in motion. While she did skate the best of all the ladies, there is room for improovement, especially in the presentation department. Technically she was really good. Even with the falls. This was her debut after pausing, so not everything is going to be perfect. And for the first time I understood how hard it must be for the judges! It isn't easy at all, when everything goes so fast, to see UR or Edge Calls. I know it is their job, but judges get a lot of unfair hate when the job isn't that easy, imho.
Mens event seems forgotten here. But Konstantin Menshov...let me just say wow. He was awesome and landed all of his jumps. He won this easily, and I think I'm a fan now. Russia should focus on Menshov, imho. (Besides Plushenko) I know he isn't the youngest horse in the stable, but look at Plushenko. Where was Menshov in the years before? Time to do some research. Michael Brezina wasn't bad, but did some costly mistakes in his free. He has a natural arrogance to him, which is quite charming. Misha Ge is a funny guy and pretty entertaining. Peter Liebers was so-so, I wouldn't really have put him into third, but this was home turf.
Thanks for the report, MaiKatze! I agree with you that watching figure skating can be exhausting! Was surprised at how much it consumed my weekend when I went to SkAm. ( I guess I shouldn't be though, CoyoteChris warned me as such, LOL. And I didn't even go to the practices!)
So happy to see that Menshov is continuing to do well. He was a pleasant surprise to me as well at SkAm. He definitely doesn't have the components of other skaters, but when he hits his jumps, wow!
I'm glad Misha Ge did well at this competition as well. Odd to hear about Brenzia getting beat by a bunch of folks.
If you don't like the music, no wonder that you dislike the program.
Okay, fine, we all like what we like and dislike what we dislike. What I don't see is any support for your opinion that Les Miz is "going backwards" for her. Gershwin wasn't accessible for a lot of people, Homage to Korea even less so. Les Mis is more accessible but not as overused as another ballet or opera (i.e. Turandot), so I thought it was a great choice for her. I also don't see why it's "beneath her." You may dislike the construction of the program and choreography, but I don't see any support for why it's bad, or "lackluster" as you called it in your other post. My personal opinion of what I like and dislike aside, I think the structure is excellent--neither frontloaded nor backloaded, the elements are evenly spread out. I think the 3S directly into the footwork is unique and brilliant, and a great example of how sometimes having good transitions is not having a lot of space or set-up in between elements. The fact that the footwork is in the first half is also a nice unique touch. The choreographed spiral sequence leading into an Ina Bauer leading into the 2A is absolutely unique and an example of great choreography, transitions, and elements blending together seamlessly. I haven't seen the choreographed sequence connecting to other elements like this from another lady (if someone has, please let me know--my point still stands that this is awesome). Could the spiral, and other elements (spins) have been excecuted better? Absolutely, there is plenty of room for improvement in a number of areas, but I think the foundation of a great program is there, which paves the road for an even better performance.
I'll easily agree with on on that this wasn't a 200 point skate.
It was a 129.34 point skate, which is a pretty average score for a FS with 5 clean triples (2 lutzes and one 3Lz/3T). She broke 200 mainly because of her excellent performance in the SP and nailing all her jumps there.
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The program selection, compared to much of the material she chose to work with in 2007-2010, is not good. Not crap, but not great. It's trite, it treads no new ground, and with the cuts of music flipping from one Les Miz song to the other, it comes off as an incoherent Skating to the Greatest Hits piece. I wouldn't bat an eye if a junior level skater showed up with something like this, but an Olympic champion?! I'd rather see her go back and do a rework of Lark Ascending before this pablum. As for the Les Miz music, I do like it and have had the complete collection in my possession since it first came out, so it isn't that, as somebody else posted above. Example, a Les Miz with potential: Jeremy Abbott's single selection of Bring Him Home. Although I don't think that program's soup yet, and needs some choreo tweaks and better technical execution, it hangs together as having champion-worthy potential. I'm not seeing where Yuna's does, even if she decides to add the emotion/performance aspects. Oh she may win competitions with it, to be sure, but for me it will be a forgettable program regardless.
As for "respect," I think you are equating this to "slavish devotion to all things Yuna and her team do." In other words, worship her as a goddess. Fat chance. I don't do skater-worship very well regardless of who it is. This is a discussion forum and this thread is about a competition. Don't try to turn it into a skater's dedicated fan site. If somebody feels Yuna deserves criticism for some aspect of her program or her skating, then it should not be a crime to put it out there on a public forum.
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I'm back from Dortmund and this thread has gained 10 pages.
Someone wrote that Yuna looked thin, and I have to agree, seeing her in person, she seems extremely frail and delicate. I never saw her before, though, so it might be she always looks this way. Fame like hers comes with a price, I guess. She was always followed by a huge crowd by everything she did. People in the audience were mainly Koreans and once she came into the venue, even the skater currently on the ice was quickly forgotten. Of course, she and Jin Seo Kim were the only skaters bombarded with presents. I liked her FS dress. It may look plain on pictures, but it was so beautiful in motion. While she did skate the best of all the ladies, there is room for improovement, especially in the presentation department. Technically she was really good. Even with the falls. This was her debut after pausing, so not everything is going to be perfect. And for the first time I understood how hard it must be for the judges! It isn't easy at all, when everything goes so fast, to see UR or Edge Calls. I know it is their job, but judges get a lot of unfair hate when the job isn't that easy, imho.
Mens event seems forgotten here. But Konstantin Menshov...let me just say wow. He was awesome and landed all of his jumps. He won this easily, and I think I'm a fan now. Russia should focus on Menshov, imho. (Besides Plushenko) I know he isn't the youngest horse in the stable, but look at Plushenko. Where was Menshov in the years before? Time to do some research. Michael Brezina wasn't bad, but did some costly mistakes in his free. He has a natural arrogance to him, which is quite charming. Misha Ge is a funny guy and pretty entertaining. Peter Liebers was so-so, I wouldn't really have put him into third, but this was home turf.
Thanks so much for your detailed report. It really gave me a sense of the atmosphere of the event.
Like you, I'm a fan of Aliona and Robin, so I'm sorry to hear they weren't at their best, but I'm sure that seeing them live was still a treat. I haven't really seen their programs this year, so I don't know what to expect from them.
On the strength of your reaction, I'll look up Menshov. I'm not familiar with him at all, but he sounds wonderful. I'm glad Misha Ge was there and gave a good impression on the ice. He seems very interesting, just from his life story alone.
YuNa often gives me the impression of being too thin and a bit frail, partly because the first year I really watched her was the year she had hurt her back. I thought at that point I'd be watching her break in two right there on the ice. But isn't it great that she did so well after such a long hiatus? I'm glad she looked as good from your vantage point of being right there in the stadium as she did to me on the YouTube screen. Certainly it's easy to see where she needs to improve, but the jumps she managed to pull off in the short program at least were pretty astonishing.
You did a great job as an on-the-scene reporter! Thanks again.
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Change of edge was short on the flying camel
The jump didn't count
What I think is that artistic part of a program is not a IT factor of defining the program's class.
I don't think it is a good criticism to set some programs as B-level at the first sight, depending on criteria such as music cut or choreography.
I do have preferences when it comes to 'artistic' side of a program but really, I don't see it as a strong total-score determinant. The system should not be working that way - if so, skaters will have to try to meet the judge's taste to get high PCS.
And I always like to believe that all programs have potentials to come, and that happens from time to time to give me pleasant surprise.
That's what I wanted to say. Maybe my words were way too abbreviated.
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- Feb 4, 2012
I really liked Menshov's skating at SkAm
Definitely, Russia should give him some respect. He has been skating consistenly well this season.
It's amazing how long Menshovs career has been going on and that now, with 29! years of age, he suddenly becomes a real contender. If Russia is scared for their second starting place at the Olympics maybe they should focus on him.
Thanks for the report, MaiKatze! I agree with you that watching figure skating can be exhausting! Was surprised at how much it consumed my weekend when I went to SkAm. ( I guess I shouldn't be though, CoyoteChris warned me as such, LOL. And I didn't even go to the practices!)
So happy to see that Menshov is continuing to do well. He was a pleasant surprise to me as well at SkAm. He definitely doesn't have the components of other skaters, but when he hits his jumps, wow!
You're welcome. I don't think it was very detailed, considering I spent my whole weekend there and I live 3 hours away from Dortmund, so I had to go there early in the morning and leave late at night. But there aren't many skating events here and I definitely wanted to see one. Skate America had 10 starters or what? NRW Trophy was even larger than worlds. There were 34! Ladies and 27! Men. (And 9 Pairs) It went on for hours and hours and hours. I feel bad for some starters, but sometimes you cannot even concentrate anymore. Michal Brezina got the female attention of some ladies who went crazy for him and he shouted "Wanna kiss?" to them at the end of his FS, that was funny.
Yep, Menshov. Like I wrote I'm so impressed. I wouldn't really count Gachinski out but Menshov really has amazing jumps. Aw, that's nice of you. For me the atmosphere and general impression are what counts, because I'm not much into the technical elements of the sport. And everything is so fast, I recognise a jump, but cannot even see if it's underrotated or something I leave that to the experts and concentrate on the costumes.
Concerning S/S like I said I was utterly exhausted when they were on so maybe I was just tired. They were both running around and were practising and warming up in the venue the whole day, during the ladies competition as well. It was really small so you could see the skaters face to face and watch them do their thing. Which was amazing and cozy. You don't have that in a stadium. Of course, Yuna was the exception......Generally everybody was smaller than they look on TV. I think movie stars also look bigger on screen.
I just watched Misha Ge's FS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAivn95Ts-0&list=UU2xVG-_A6veo6yXL9nZkICg&index=2
What the heck was the last minute? I thought the music screwed up ---but no, it was part of the program we went from City Lights to hip-hop?! I'm surprised he didn't get a vocal music deduction. And the judges loved it--he got +1.93 GOE for that step sequence. I'm not sure if judges at an ISU championship would be that generous, but I admire the guy for trying something new. The audience clearly loved it.
What the heck was the last minute? I thought the music screwed up ---but no, it was part of the program we went from City Lights to hip-hop?! I'm surprised he didn't get a vocal music deduction. And the judges loved it--he got +1.93 GOE for that step sequence. I'm not sure if judges at an ISU championship would be that generous, but I admire the guy for trying something new. The audience clearly loved it.
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^Yes, I remember thinking that there was something wrong with the music. I was sure he would get a deduction for this, I wonder why he didn't. The audience who is screaming so loudly consisted mainly of the other skaters at that point, it was late and he was the last one to skate.
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I think it's just 1 point for a vocal music deduction?
He should have gotten one, but what an entertaining routine!
He should have gotten one, but what an entertaining routine!
I always think it's terrific when someone starts shining after toiling away for years under the radar. It's a similar situation with Akiko Suzuki; suddenly everything seems to click into place, and the skater becomes amazing. Who knows why, but it's a joy for skating fans: like finding treasure that was hidden in plain sight. And we can just imagine how thrilling it is for the skater.
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Well, I would give +3 GOE to Yuna if she was just standing there and reading a phone book on the ice.
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Well, I would give +3 GOE to Yuna if she was just standing there and reading a phone book on the ice.
)) LOL...but as Yu Na is an Olympic Champion it is perhaps she stood that combo in training that they let her go away with it;-))))....I watched Yu Na in training in Essen at the ice rink and she nailed it there in one go, and in the next it was a bit shaky...she needs just time to go to 100% like she did at Olympics 2010 IMO. Otherwise her skating skills and footwork are largely unchallenged at this point;-) just watching her floating around the ice is something special. And I agree about the phone book......well, she asked me where the name Moskitos comes from for our local ice hockey team that trains at the rink in Essen too;-))) and sb from another forum just said: well Yu Na Kim going to the NRW Trophy in Dortmund is just like the pope going to ALDI (big German supermarket chain with inexpensive, good products) LOL
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LOL that is freaking hilarious.. and uhmm .. hey i like Aldi (love the fresh veggies)
How was it like for the skaters training at Essen? You guys did great to keep it a secret.
I have to take my hats off to the Germans for being excellent hosts, accommodating and very hospitable to all the foreigners. I went to NRW Trophy in Dortmund, and everything just went extraordinary smoothly and efficiently, easy going and relaxed, German style. Met alot of happy Germans (maybe something to do with Christmas Market?) all spoke good English which makes it extra easy to go around.
I especially want to thank Thomas who manned the door hehe...By the way your ice hokey team is seriously called Moskitos? Like Mosquitos in English? I can see why she's a bit curious, the nearest comparison I can find in the UK is team Wasp/stinger, but I can't think of any insect team smaller than a wasp.
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Oh yeah Misha's FS music edit was definitely weird, I think maybe it wasn't compressed properly, it seems to have lost the bass part when it changed rhythm into vacal/Rap. I like the premise of the program (like a modern chaplin in tux), and even got a kick out of the quarter Pink Tux costume, but the music really took me out of the program so I am not sure if worked. I even saw one of the judges scratched her head going 'ayiiieeiyayaya... what to do', I sympathies with her. However it is nice to see bit of a personality on these competitions and with Misha there's always plenty.
I was impressed with Menshovs, I am not familiar with him and at the beginning I thought this program might be something Artur Gachinski might do, choice of music & choreography. But his presence is mature, masculine, and classical. I like it alot.
And MaiKatze, i empathise with you, I a still recuperating from my trip. May be I was too nervous for Yuna (who succeeded beyond my expectations), I am now simply exhausted.
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- Mar 23, 2010
Imo this is a great kitschy vintage program very untypical of figure skating programs. Think Yuna as this icy scream queen from 60s British B-movie since the soundtrack was not really OST of today, but more like acoustic orchestral sound effects from a Hammer's Horror film that does not follow a melodic arc that makes it easy listening or to skate to. In a way, this gives her something to work towards to in her future performances, since the unfamiliarity and the unfriendliness of the music and genre definitely makes it an hard sell, but it could really highlight her ability to perform and express.
There's no easy-listening melodies, rhythms or motifs which she can latch on to. This choice is certainly the antithesis of Les Miserable. This is not some familiar well recognized 'master work' that everyone already knows by heart which could make skater's life so much easier. It is the same principle on what makes Dai's FS last year so great, it is not what they do, but how they do it. A good elite challenge would be making the least appetizing ingredients work and how to turn it into a credible program. So of course it is totally jarring to those who are perhaps used to certain style of presentation. B-movies tends to be over melodramatic and a bit hokum, where everything is just a bit bigger than life and twisted and yes 'totally off'
On the other hand, this style guru seems to like it
http://www.nickverrreos.blogspot.co.uk/
Maybe it is a UK thing, we are just a bit twisted
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- Dec 12, 2012
LOL that is freaking hilarious.. and uhmm .. hey i like Aldi (love the fresh vegies)
How was it like for the skaters training at Essen? You guys did great to keep it a secret.
I have to take my hats off to the Germans for being excellent hosts, accommodating and very hospitable to all the foreigners. I went to NRW Trophy in Dortmund, and everything just went extraordinary smoothly and efficiently, easy going and relaxed, German style. Met alot of happy Germans (maybe something to do with Christmas Market?) all spoke good English which makes it extra easy to go around.
By the way your ice hokey team is seriously called Moskitos? Like Mosquitos in English? I can see why she's a bit curious, the nearest comparison I can find in the UK is team Wasp/stinger, but I can't think of any insect team smaller than a wasp.
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Oh yeah Misha's FS music edit was definitely weird, I think maybe it wasn't compressed properly, it seems to have lost the bass part when it changed rhythm into vacal/Rap. I like the premise of the program (like a modern chaplin in tux), and even got a kick out of the quarter Pink Tux costume, but the music really took me out of the program so I am not sure if worked. I even saw one of the judges scratched her head going 'ayiiieeiyayaya... what to do', I sympathies with her. However it is nice to see bit of a personality on these competitions and with Misha there's always plenty.
I was impressed with Menshovs, I am not familiar with him and at the beginning I thought this program might be something Artur Gachinski might do, choice of music & choreography. But his presence is mature, masculine, and quite classical. I like it alot.
And MaiKatze, i empathise with you, I a still recuperating from my trip. May be I was too nervous for Yuna (who succeeded beyond my expectations), I am now simply exhausted.
Have a nice recovery too...i was exhausted too on that Saturday night;-9 getting up at 4 am at the crack of dawn, walking over to the rink (it is only 8 mins walk away from my flat - Hihi I chose my flat for that reason;-))) and having those amazing 3 hours in all to keep Yu Na and her team company because but us 2 and the ice master (who cant speak English) there was nobody else there. my friend and I made tea for them at the rink because there was no cafe open or anything of course....I brought tea with me luckily, too. I just found the official practice at Dortmund on YouTube too and so I could compare what she did in Essen. Her team booked the rink 3 times for an hour before the competition so that she and her team mate Jin Seo Kim, could practice in peace. the practice rink in Dortmund was too noisy, without a roof and crowded, their manager said. And considering the temperatures we had in the last few days, this certainly was a good idea! That is nice that you enjoyed your trip to Dortmund and your stay there. Yep, and it may well be that Glühwein cheers us Germans up at this time of year, they sell it at every christmas market here u see - it is a very popular drink!
My coach tipped our group off - she also was an Olympic skater once and went to Innsbruck at 1976 and shared the ice with Toller Cranston! (I asked her whether she knew that he hated figures really so much that he threw his figure skates in the pond there.....;-))Ah well, she was only 15 years old skating at pairs at the time...and now she is 50 years old and still teaching;-))) she has got connections of course - knows Aljona and Robin as well as Ingo Steuer and all of their coaches......Yesterday we celebrated her b-day and Advent party so we all thanked her for that wonderful opportunity we got. She works part time at the rink and is a member of the club that manages the rink. i sometimes do volunteer work as well there.
Oh yes, and Yu Na Kim signed my skates! they are lucky skates now and i hopefully will learn that darn 3-turn now;-))))
Yes the ice hockey team is called after the insect mosquito: and their slogan is (so I translated it for her): We fight, sting and are victorious;-))) ah well, but they arent too good..they lose often!
be as it may, in the saturday evening I went to listen to the Christmas Oratorio at Essens Philharmonie and nearly dozed off in my seat through Ingeborg Danz alto aria singing Sleep my dear jesus....I was so exhausted! But I enjoyed it anyway, as the choir under helmuth Rilling (a household name for Bach concertos, he also won a Grammy) was excellent. Simply a perfect day.
I find the LP of Ge actually quite entertaining....it is a mash up of Chapiln with Rap, why not and he put on a real good show, too at the beginning.....we will see how he will do at Europeans. Some programs need time to grow....same with Aljona and Robin's LP. i liked the SP with their new costumes, it gels now. But hey ok, how can you top "Pina"?? They kicked V/T's butt last year and so they will do this year...LOL. But what is the matter with Trankov? IMO he hurt himself at the first fall and completely lost it at that lift and fell again. Pairs is dangerous indeed.
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- Mar 23, 2010
Wow it is so cool you get to train with an Olympic coach, best luck to you. Do you do singles, or pairs? Robin jogged past me a few times, and Aljona went through a seat railing like a world champion right next to me. It is extraordinary really how close you can get to the skaters. It was very cozy and friendly atmosphere so no wonder all the skaters looks rather relaxed and seems to enjoy themselves. Walk around and was like 3-5 feet from all everyone. But I thought it was cool how every one behaved nonchalantly as if it was nothing.... as it should be I think. Except when Yuna walks in, and the rink is immediately buzzing.
Thanks for confirming the Mosquito ice hockey rink. Actually thinking about it, I can't help but get a bit of a giggle, because Mosquitos are vampire insects who kisses to survive, so Yuna's practice was at a vampire insect rink (the place to be kissed by vampires in Germany)!? Good lord... a nice omen for her return??
Yeah the Dortmund practice rink is more like a Ice Hocky rink and is too cold for practice, it is like -1 degrees these 2days, especially with the snow hail on Sunday, and it is a standard open rink, basically 2 walls, 2 open sides. It DOES have a roof, but I'd imagine not ideal for someone used to warmer conditions. I did see a few skater there practicing, all wearing very warm clothing.
Misha need to pump up the bass for the rap part of his music track. Yeah crowd love him, who doesn't like Misha
Thanks for confirming the Mosquito ice hockey rink. Actually thinking about it, I can't help but get a bit of a giggle, because Mosquitos are vampire insects who kisses to survive, so Yuna's practice was at a vampire insect rink (the place to be kissed by vampires in Germany)!? Good lord... a nice omen for her return??
Yeah the Dortmund practice rink is more like a Ice Hocky rink and is too cold for practice, it is like -1 degrees these 2days, especially with the snow hail on Sunday, and it is a standard open rink, basically 2 walls, 2 open sides. It DOES have a roof, but I'd imagine not ideal for someone used to warmer conditions. I did see a few skater there practicing, all wearing very warm clothing.
Misha need to pump up the bass for the rap part of his music track. Yeah crowd love him, who doesn't like Misha
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- Dec 12, 2012
Wow it is so cool you train with an Olympic coach, best luck to you. Do you do singles, or pairs? Robin jogged past me a few times, and Aljona went through a seat railing like a world champion right next to me. It is extraordinary really how close you can get to the skaters. It was very cozy and friendly atmosphere so no wonder all the skaters looks rather relaxed and seems to enjoy themselves. Walk around and was like 3-5 feet from all everyone. But I thought it was cool how every one behaved nonchalantly as if it was nothing.... as it should be I think. Except when Yuna walks in, and the rink is immediately buzzing.
Thanks for confirming the Mosquito ice hockey rink. Actually thinking about it, I can't help but get a bit of a giggle, because Mosquitos are vampire insects who kisses to survive, so Yuna's practice was at a vampire insect rink (the place to be kissed by vampires in Germany)!? Good lord... a nice omen for her return??
Yeah the Dortmund practice rink is more like a Ice Hocky rink and is too cold for practice, it is like -1 degrees these 2days, especially with the snow hail on Sunday, and it is a standard open rink, basically 2 walls, 2 open sides. It DOES have a roof, but I'd imagine not ideal for someone used to warmer conditions. I did see a few skater there practicing, all wearing very warm clothing.
Misha need to pump up the base for the rap part of his music track. Yeah crowd love him, who doesn't like Misha
thanks...Kerstin placed 6th with her partner 1976;-))) I do the basics first and I want to concentrate on ice dance later. So Robin jogged past you. Yep thats Dortmund, nowhere else you can stand in skaters' ways while they warm up - and nobody minds because it is just family;-))) to all. Aljona had a sinusitis and they needed to go to another competition before Euros and Worlds...that is why they were there. They just phoned up the comitee a week ago and asked whether they could join - no problem. Thats Dortmund.
LOL about that connection about Essen's ice rink. Yep could be the reason why she asked me that...she really thinks a lot about what she does with her choreo. Actually I sent her an mp3 with a wonderful instrumental cover of Adeles Rolling in the Deep as a thank you this morning;-)))
Ah I see about Dortmunds practice rink. Well, Essen's rink was above zero at least as it is in a building - though not heated. We all practise with fleece anoraks and trousers. i bought a second set of them recently;-)))) Actually Essen's rink is used regularly as a practice venue for competitions that are in Dortmund. We have a very impressive skater's wall of fame in the bosses' office. Yu Na and Jin Seo were added this weekend.......
I am sure Misha will work at his routine. It has a lot of potential IMO.
