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Thread: 2012 TEB Ladies Short Program SP

  1. #226
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    the only similarity between Sasha and Julia are their flexibilities, Julia even said this herself.

    they have different style and state of mind, the more I see Julia, she is more of a power skater, she has raw power and reminds me more of Irina Slutskaya
    who also was heavily criticized from her early years of her career

  2. #227
    Custom Title Mao88's Avatar
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    LADIES SHORT PROGRAM - VIDEOS & RESULT (Updated)

    1. Julia LIPNITSKAYA (RUS) - 63.55 Short Program, 2nd Copy
    2. Ashley WAGNER (USA) - 63.09 Short Program, 2nd Copy
    3. Elizaveta TUKTAMYSHEVA (RUS) - 58.26 Short Program
    4. Mae Berenice MEITE (FRA) - 54.83 Short Program
    5. Polina KOROBEYNIKOVA (RUS) - 54.50 Short Program
    6. Elena GLEBOVA (EST) - 52.61 Short Program
    7. Christina GAO (USA) - 52.55 Short Program
    8. Lena MARROCCO (FRA) - 48.86 Short Program
    9. Joshi HELGESSON (SWE) - 45.19 Short Program
    10. Jenna MCCORKELL (GBR) - 43.15 Short Program
    Last edited by Mao88; 11-17-2012 at 06:47 AM.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by herios View Post
    Counter example: Caroline Zhang's pearl. Has vanished
    No, it did not. She performed it at nationals and four continents last season.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rtu_eBx40LE&t=3m9s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKREKXr3Jmg&t=2m55s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWwHKPNfYj8&t=4m9s

    I know Caroline didn't perform it at GP but that's probably because it's not so important for her like nationals, where she was fighting for making the team. Even without a pearl you can't deny she's flexible.

    And when it comes to Julia, I think that she will maintain her flexibilty, the real problems are jumps. I'm not saying it's certain she'll lose them, it's just more likely than loosing flexibility in her case.

  4. #229
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sky_fly20
    they have different style and state of mind, the more I see Julia, she is more of a power skater, she has raw power and reminds me more of Irina Slutskaya
    who also was heavily criticized from her early years of her career
    Oh yeah, Irina was always so heavily cirtizied for having small jumps...
    I don't see that comparison at all, Julia is nothing like Irina with her huge jumps, power and speed.

    And this competition is Ashley's to lose. Julia does have a TES advantage, but it's not as great as people make it out to be. Yes, she does 2 lutzes - but the other jump she repeats is the easiest one, the toe-loop. And since combinations aren't rewarded enough under IJS, the only advantage it gives her is another jumping pass for a second 2A. 3.3 points - and not even that, since Ashley is doind two 2A, although on in a 3F-2A sequence. That's not exactly much. Additionally, her program is front-loaded while Ashleys isn't. As long as Ashley hits her spins and gains Lv 4 on all of them, her BV shouldn't be that much less. Given her jumps have better quality, if she's clean, she might even win the TES. At least she's not going to be far behind Julia.
    Add to that her rightfully some points higher PCS, and the tale is told... if Ash goes clean, at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Oh yeah, Irina was always so heavily cirtizied for having small jumps...
    I don't see that comparison at all, Julia is nothing like Irina with her huge jumps, power and speed.


    And this competition is Ashley's to lose. Julia does have a TES advantage, but it's not as great as people make it out to be. Yes, she does 2 lutzes - but the other jump she repeats is the easiest one, the toe-loop. And since combinations aren't rewarded enough under IJS, the only advantage it gives her is another jumping pass for a second 2A. 3.3 points - and not even that, since Ashley is doind two 2A, although on in a 3F-2A sequence. That's not exactly much. Additionally, her program is front-loaded while Ashleys isn't. As long as Ashley hits her spins and gains Lv 4 on all of them, her BV shouldn't be that much less. Given her jumps have better quality, if she's clean, she might even win the TES. At least she's not going to be far behind Julia.
    Add to that her rightfully some points higher PCS, and the tale is told... if Ash goes clean, at least.
    I think Sky fly meant that their early careers are comparable in terms of presentation They are criticized for the lack of it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Oh yeah, Irina was always so heavily cirtizied for having small jumps...
    I don't see that comparison at all, Julia is nothing like Irina with her huge jumps, power and speed.
    Im talking about their overall presentation, Julia is being heavily criticized
    but give the girl some credit, she is doing well at the moment and deserved to be ranked 1st.
    we cheer for men doing quads yet we are stuck in the ladies stone age with a mere 3T-3T arsenal and still win !

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Oh yeah, Irina was always so heavily cirtizied for having small jumps...
    I don't see that comparison at all, Julia is nothing like Irina with her huge jumps, power and speed.

    And this competition is Ashley's to lose. Julia does have a TES advantage, but it's not as great as people make it out to be. Yes, she does 2 lutzes - but the other jump she repeats is the easiest one, the toe-loop. And since combinations aren't rewarded enough under IJS, the only advantage it gives her is another jumping pass for a second 2A. 3.3 points - and not even that, since Ashley is doind two 2A, although on in a 3F-2A sequence. That's not exactly much. Additionally, her program is front-loaded while Ashleys isn't. As long as Ashley hits her spins and gains Lv 4 on all of them, her BV shouldn't be that much less. Given her jumps have better quality, if she's clean, she might even win the TES. At least she's not going to be far behind Julia.
    Add to that her rightfully some points higher PCS, and the tale is told... if Ash goes clean, at least.
    Your in dreamland and your kidding yourself. I keep hearing that Wagner looks more polished. Well, the only reason Wagner looks more polished is that she has gone for the same tactic that Kostner deployed last season - to skate clean with watered down content. Her SP had no 3x3 combination, no Lutz, and far easier spins. Of course she skated clean and looked more polished - any half decent skater would with that kind of weak 1980's style content (i.e. your bound to look more elegant when your not trying anything remotely difficult!). Julia's program, on the other hand, was far more difficult and she skated clean, apart from an edge call. She should be at least 3 points ahead and was undermarked on her PCS. If both skate clean, Julia wins and any other result would be a complete scandal of Osmond proportions. It would be time to start questioning the fairness of the Judging and the legitimacy of the sport. The whole point of COP/IJS was to reward and encourage difficulty - not playing it safe with weak content. Julia is the skater taking the risks and if she skates clean - she should receive the rewards of that (i.e. she wins)
    Last edited by Mao88; 11-17-2012 at 07:41 AM.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    Your in dreamland and your kidding herself. I keep hearing that Wagner looks more polished. Well, the only reason Wagner looks more polished is that she has gone for the same tactic that Kostner deployed last season - to skate clean with watered down content. Her SP had no 3x3 combination, no Lutz, and far easier spins. Of course she skated clean and looked more polished - any half decent skater would with that kind of weak 1980's style content. Julia's program, on the other hand, was far more difficult and she skated clean, apart from an edge call. She should be at least 3 points ahead and was undermarked on her PCS. If both skate, Julia wins and any other result would be a complete scandal of Osmond proportions. It would be time to start questioning the fairness of the Judging and the legitimacy of the sport.
    No, I think the scores were fair: Julia deserved 1st place, absolutely, but she wasn't underscored at all in the PCS, considering the scores the judges gave to the others (Liza 26.97, for example), I think that just her TR mark could be higher, I agree that difficult movements that require a lot of flexibility are actually difficult transitions, so 6.68 is pretty low, but 6.96 for SS is correct (she doesn't have a good control of her edges yet, she has to do a lot of cross-overs to gain speed, you can really hear the noise of her blades scratching the ice while she's skating), and so are 6.96 and 6.93 for CH and IN. Yes, considering Ashley's 7.71 for PE, Julia maybe deserved something around 7.5, too, so the maximum she could score (for me) was around 28, not more. 63 is a pretty good score and she has to work on the height of her jumps, especially the axel and the lutz/flip, then she'll be able to get +2 or +3 for them.

  9. #234
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88
    Your in dreamland and your kidding herself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88
    I keep hearing that Wagner looks more polished. Well, the only reason Wagner looks more polished is that she has gone for the same tactic that Kostner deployed last season - to skate clean with watered down content. Her SP had no 3x3 combination, no Lutz, and far easier spins. Of course she skated clean and looked more polished - any half decent skater would with that kind of weak 1980's style content (i.e. your bound to look more elegant when your not trying anything remotely difficult!). Julia's program, on the other hand, was far more difficult and she skated clean, apart from an edge call. She should be at least 3 points ahead and was undermarked on her PCS. If both skate, Julia wins and any other result would be a complete scandal of Osmond proportions. It would be time to start questioning the fairness of the Judging and the legitimacy of the sport. The whole point of COP/IJS was to reward and encourage difficulty - not playing it safe with weak content. Julia is the skater taking the risks and if she skates clean - she should receive the rewards of that (i.e. she wins)
    Easy put: big huge no, to all of that. Julia would'nt skate as good as Ashley just by watering down her content. It's just that Ashley (by now) is a better overall skater. And that's not in any dream land, that's just reality. Julia has the difficulty, but not the quality. And quality is just as important as difficulty, like it or not.

  10. #235
    Forever stuck on those steps Li'Kitsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88
    You delusional troll. It's easy to perform weak content with quality - that's the whole point of rewarding difficulty and it's Julia who is the one who is combining difficulty with quality, not Wagner.
    Easier content would not make Julias SS better. Nor would it make her listen to her music instead of skating right through it.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Easier content would not make Julias SS better. Nor would it make her listen to her music instead of skating right through it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Easier content would not make Julias SS better. Nor would it make her listen to her music instead of skating right through it.
    She is a child.A very good and promising skater.So stop, please. Where was Ashley 2-3 years ago?Nowhere. And look at her now - a top contender everywhere, a great performer...The thing is that everything comes with age and experience.Right now I admire Julia's great spirit and tech difficulty. I believe she'll progress during her life in other aspects of skating.

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Li'Kitsu View Post
    Easier content would not make Julias SS better. Nor would it make her listen to her music instead of skating right through it.
    Julia is only 14, expressiveness will come in time, even the british commentators have said that about Julia
    you cant really expect Julia to be like Wagner who is a veteran and much older

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by koatcue View Post
    She is a child.A very good and promising skater.So stop, please. Where was Ashley 2-3 years ago?Nowhere. And look at her now - a top contender everywhere, a great performer...The thing is that everything comes with age and experience.Right now I admire Julia's great spirit and tech difficulty. I believe she'll progress during her life in other aspects of skating.
    That is why Ashley never won big titles 2-3 years ago, because it took her time to develop. Julia has all the time to develop, I believe she has the potential to be great someday artistically but she is not today. Her skating skills are not so good today. She pays no attention to the music. She must be scored for what she can do in the present not for what great potential she has to be great someday. I admire her technical difficulty and great spirit too, but that has nothing to do with how she should be scored on PCS.
    Last edited by Mirunna; 11-17-2012 at 09:24 AM.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mao88 View Post
    Well, the only reason Wagner looks more polished is that she has gone for the same tactic that Kostner deployed last season - to skate clean with watered down content. Her SP had no 3x3 combination, no Lutz, and far easier spins.
    This is overkill. True, Wagner has no lutz in her SP, but it's not like her SP is only salchows and toeloops. She had a flip and a loop (Kostner didn't even have her flip in the SP all season long last year). Her SP could be tougher with a 3/3, but I wouldn't characterize it as "watered down." Wagner had excellent transitions out of her axel and loop, and a tano double toeloop in her combo by the way, which adds to the difficulty of her program.

    I give Julia props for being one of the few ladies for going for a 3/3, a lutz and flip, and she was rewarded on the TES side. But a criticism that has been raised of Julia before is that she rushes through the music. The frontloaded nature of her SP doesn't help. She needs to take her time with her movements; having mature presentation is not based on line and flexibility (in which case, sure, Julia would win). The judges are saying she could improve in her components. I don't think that's wrong.

    Julia's program, on the other hand, was far more difficult and she skated clean, apart from an edge call. She should be at least 3 points ahead and was undermarked on her PCS. If both skate clean, Julia wins and any other result would be a complete scandal of Osmond proportions. It would be time to start questioning the fairness of the Judging and the legitimacy of the sport. The whole point of COP/IJS was to reward and encourage difficulty - not playing it safe with weak content. Julia is the skater taking the risks and if she skates clean - she should receive the rewards of that (i.e. she wins)
    Oh, goodness. I found it totally obnoxious how you keep emphasizing that Osmond's win was a "complete scandal," and it's even more ugly how you've decided that it is a scandal on its own level. Now you're preparing to scream unfairness before the FS here has even been skated. Did you have such a problem about COP/IJS rewarding and encouraging difficulty when Mao defeated Julia with far easier content in the FS than Julia had in her FS at Cup of China, Mao88? They both had technical mistakes but Mao had more; Julia had the tougher content. If you start to explain that Mao justifiably defeated Julia with superior PCS...no problem, but guess what, the same applies here.

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