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Thread: 2012 TEB - Pairs Long Program

  1. #46
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    Really happy to see K/S take the victory but it was close, low on the TES but rightfully much higher on the PCS. They have a great piece of music, which builds and builds to the end. If they can get the SBS jumps nailed this could see them back on the worlds podium, I wonder should they switch from the 3T sequence to a 2axel sequence and then have a solo 3T?

    Found the Canadians a bit dissapointing, great technichally but little in the way of presentation, they could have skated to any piece of music. Enjoyed the Italians more in the short but this was a nice performance. I feel that S/K were very hard done by, I would have had them 3rd, love their lifts and throws and apart from teh 1axel it was a pretty good programme. They were marked down on TES so maybe they missed a few levels.

    Great performance by the French team, it will be interesting to see how they fare in the Europeans. Maybe a Top 5?

  2. #47
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    Moskvina put a lot more effort into K/S's programs. They now have more wonderful SPs and LPs than any of previous Moskvina's #1 pairs. Any of their programs are worthy of the title had they skated them cleanly.

    I don't think B/S are that strong technically either. B/S always have horrible twist. Just like K/S. B/S can't jump that well. Their usual layout was 3T and 2A-2T. They messed the SBS jumps more than any of the top pairs I have seen. They also have never skated a clean LP, as far as I remember.

    Maybe M/D on a really inspired night, would make this LP into a masterpiece.

    K/S got the look right, the connection right this year. I hate to say, but it's a bit too late. Their PCS tanked badly compare to the other teams. No matter how clean they skate at W, they are at best vying for a bronze medal. Which is wrong!

  3. #48
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    Did B/S screw up more SBS jumps than S/P? Because that would be funny.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Moskvina put a lot more effort into K/S's programs. They now have more wonderful SPs and LPs than any of previous Moskvina's #1 pairs. Any of their programs are worthy of the title had they skated them cleanly.

    I don't think B/S are that strong technically either. B/S always have horrible twist. Just like K/S. B/S can't jump that well. Their usual layout was 3T and 2A-2T. They messed the SBS jumps more than any of the top pairs I have seen. They also have never skated a clean LP, as far as I remember.

    Maybe M/D on a really inspired night, would make this LP into a masterpiece.

    K/S got the look right, the connection right this year. I hate to say, but it's a bit too late. Their PCS tanked badly compare to the other teams. No matter how clean they skate at W, they are at best vying for a bronze medal. Which is wrong!
    B&S were actually known for having strong SBS jumping technique their sbs triple toes in particular were extremely well done elements and they very rarely missed them. They were much more consistent and better technicians on these elements than Dmitriev with either partner, or S&P .

    In any case I think the difference between K&S and many of Moskvina's past students has to do more with the criticism of K&S' presentation; Yuko especially, lacks the long lines and natural movement of many of Moskvina's previous pupils. That being said, I have found many of their performances to be exquisite and much stronger choreographically than what their rivals have been doing. However, I will admit that I have preferred most if not all of Moskvina's previous teams.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by escaflowne9282 View Post
    B&S were actually known for having strong SBS jumping technique their sbs triple toes in particular were extremely well done elements and they very rarely missed them. They were much more consistent and better technicians on these elements than Dmitriev with either partner, or S&P .
    Are you serious?
    1998 Euro. He bailed out on the 2A.
    1999 World. She crashed on the 2A.
    2000 Euro. She doubled the 3T.
    2000 GPF. Only time when they landed both SBS, she crashed on the throw.

    These are the few programs available on youtube.
    Their throws aren't particularly strong either.

    I don't ever recall them doing clean SP & LP. I don't know about Dmitriev and S&P, but B/S would never reach the podium in the current CoP. They are weak jumpers. Sure, their SS are better than the current top pairs, but their tricks aren't the same level.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    Kavaguti & Smirnov: I love this program. I find the choreography is wonderful but would need better skaters. Imagine Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze skate to this..Kavaguti looks freakingly thin.
    Let me imagine how B/S would skate this for you.

    He would double on the first 3T, she would crash on the 2nd 3T.
    She would crash on the 2A.
    Double foot on one of the throw.
    Crashy twist.

    She doesn't have the same flexibility, so the program isn't fully realized.

    In all, a mess.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Are you serious?
    1998 Euro. He bailed out on the 2A.
    1999 World. She crashed on the 2A.
    2000 Euro. She doubled the 3T.
    2000 GPF. Only time when they landed both SBS, she crashed on the throw.

    These are the few programs available on youtube.
    Their throws aren't particularly strong either.

    I don't ever recall them doing clean SP & LP. I don't know about Dmitriev and S&P, but B/S would never reach the podium in the current CoP. They are weak jumpers. Sure, their SS are better than the current top pairs, but their tricks aren't the same level.
    Dmitriev and his partners were actually no more consistent than B&S when it came to jumps , Mishkutienok had jumping errors in 1992 at the Olympics, as did Kazakova in 1998. Their throws were also less difficult, only a throw 3-toe and a throw 3 salchow. As for S&P, Pelletier was terrific ,but Jamie Sale was a hot mess when it came to jumping, she frequently missed her SBS,(2000 worlds, GPF, 2001 worlds,etc.) and had very poor rotation/technique. Many of her jumps would have been downgraded under COP. For the time they competed, B&S, sbs jumps were actually considered very well done;close together, well timed, good picking technique, and parallel arcs.

    In today's field where pairs are routinely doing 2 sbs triple jumps per long program, and there are more rigid requirements concerning sequencing and levels, trained as they were, none of these three would reach the podium under COP. They would all have to go through a major overhaul and retrain everything.

    As for K&S, I like them and I like their programs. I think they are underrated,but I wish her line were a bit more sturdy. I actually think a whimsical style would suit their skating much more. I really preferred their original SP to Cats

  8. #53
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    Yeah a good part of the second mark book is sale's struggle with the 2a.

  9. #54
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    While I don't doubt B/S might be better than D and his partners or S/P, I was surprised when some silly poster suggested B/S would skate a K/S program better than K/S. They are technically weaker even at their best. No chance to turn that program into something better. Only worse.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    I agree that the height difference can be distracting as well with D&R. However, at least Meagan looks healthy and strong when Cheng really looks like an underfed twelve y-o girl. Also, Hao is almost twice her age, which to me, is just wrong. Lastly, Radford's line is arguably much better than Hao's, but that's a matter of personal taste I guess.
    i guess there is no wrong or right,,, maybe just different,,,i personally would love to see all different possibilities,, and how to maximal the athlete's capabilities....... dan zhang's retirement is mainly due to her height and weight,, which caused lots injuries on hao,,,, right now it may not look "normal" to some people,, but given them (or her) 2 more years,,she got the potential to catch up with hao imo

    even tho d/r got all the so-called bodylines,, i still cant see the connection between these two,,, hope they can be more like a "pair" next season

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by yqs100 View Post
    i guess there is no wrong or right,,, maybe just different,,,i personally would love to see all different possibilities,, and how to maximal the athlete's capabilities....... dan zhang's retirement is mainly due to her height and weight,, which caused lots injuries on hao,,,, right now it may not look "normal" to some people,, but given them (or her) 2 more years,,she got the potential to catch up with hao imo

    even tho d/r got all the so-called bodylines,, i still cant see the connection between these two,,, hope they can be more like a "pair" next season
    Talking about athelicism, what I particularly like about D&R is that they are pushing the enveloppe, going for sbs 3 ltz, sbs 3 sal and throw 3 lutz (preceded by a transition) in the same program.

    Back to the Chinese, even if Cheng does catch up with Hao in one or two seasons, he'll be thirty so I don't think it is that wise to pair them up now.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    While I don't doubt B/S might be better than D and his partners or S/P, I was surprised when some silly poster suggested B/S would skate a K/S program better than K/S. They are technically weaker even at their best. No chance to turn that program into something better. Only worse.
    Let one silly poster reply to some insulting poster
    B&S technically weaker than K&S?
    True, Berezhnaya isn't as flexible as Kavaguti. Still, does technique all come down to flexibility and tricks?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Let me imagine how B/S would skate this for you.

    He would double on the first 3T, she would crash on the 2nd 3T.
    She would crash on the 2A.
    Double foot on one of the throw.
    Crashy twist.

    She doesn't have the same flexibility, so the program isn't fully realized.

    In all, a mess.
    Let me remind you how K&S skated this for you.

    Opening sbs jump sequence: off-timing even on the take-off, she doesn't make the rotation on the first toe, doubles the second one, while he messes up his.

    Throw 3 sal : tilting forward on the landing

    Sbs 2 axel: Off-timing again, under-rotated, with absolutely NO flow

    Throw 3 loop: Again tilting forward on the landing, with very little flow on the landing

    What I really liked in this program were the transitions and the choreography. The "weaknesses of B&S" that you pointed out won't change my mind. I still think this program would look a lot better if performed by Tamara's past students. You can adapt the lifts to make up for Berezhnaya's so-called lack of flexibility but you won't make K&S crossovers as good as B&S. Then, I agree that B&S are not CoP skaters, but the program would be more beautiful to watch. Didn't say it would earn more points!

    K&S may have been skating together for a while now, they still look unpolished to me (especially their tricks that you seem to praise) and don't even reach one tenth of B&S's skating skills and ability to mesmerize an audience.

    And yet, despite hating the music and not loving the pair, I loved the program. That's how great Moskvina is.
    Last edited by DannyCurry; 11-19-2012 at 12:09 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post

    I don't think B/S are that strong technically either. B/S always have horrible twist. Just like K/S. B/S can't jump that well. Their usual layout was 3T and 2A-2T. They messed the SBS jumps more than any of the top pairs I have seen. They also have never skated a clean LP, as far as I remember.
    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Their throws aren't particularly strong either.
    Then, have a look at this masterpiece, especially at 4'08 the wonderful spiral entrance into the throw 3 loop with great flow in and out of the jump.

    Did K&S ever skate a clean LP? Can't tell because I haven't watched skating much lately but would surely love to see one clean LP from them.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DannyCurry View Post
    Then, have a look at this masterpiece, especially at 4'08 the wonderful spiral entrance into the throw 3 loop with great flow in and out of the jump.

    Did K&S ever skate a clean LP? Can't tell because I haven't watched skating much lately but would surely love to see one clean LP from them.
    It was B/S's incredible throw jumps in 97/98 that made me a fan of pair skating and B/S as a pair. I may not remember all the details. But during big events, B/S usually didn't make big errors. And compared to today's pairs, their mistakes were not that ugly-looking IMHO.

  15. #60
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    B&S 1999 GPF
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq-D1w7GcIQ
    Hand down on the throw triple loop
    Trip going into the death spiral
    Crashy triple twist
    fall on the double axel.

    1999 Skate America was worse. There's no video, but I remember there was more than one fall.

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