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Thread: 2012 TEB Men's Long Programs LP

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Nobody in elite skating has "no transitions", certainly not Dai and Hanyu. Not Joubert either.
    I'm sorry but I can hardly see any transition at all (here litterally) in Joubert's SP. Threes or mohawks at best. (just took the time to rewatch it : three threes, mohawks and one toe pick thing).
    After, "no transition" it's a way of saying almost no, surely everybody is able to but something here and there but I tend not to consider pre/post-racking-point-jump-transitions as transition but as difficult jump variations. Also Joubert's flat edges/no speed "transitions" and toe pick work are not really transitions either for me. Too easy, no edges involved.
    Now that you say it, I remember at least one eagle from Hanyu ! I'll see japanese guys again (maybe) at NHK and my memory will be refreshed.

  2. #167
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by machin View Post
    After, "no transition" it's a way of saying almost no, surely everybody is able to but something here and there but I tend not to consider pre/post-racking-point-jump-transitions as transition but as difficult jump variations. Also Joubert's flat edges/no speed "transitions" and toe pick work are not really transitions either for me. Too easy, no edges involved.
    Can you point out to me where in the guidelines for marking transitions it says "depth of edges", "high speed", "within an acceptable amount of time from any elements" or "no toepick work"? Remember, the question is not what you consider to be transitions but what the ISU considers to be transitions.

    While most people find the TR mark a relatively object part of the components, it's interesting how vague the bullet points really are.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Was that Yagudin's music too, Toni?
    I am not Toni, but since I LOOOVE this program so much, please allow me to put the link on behalf of Toni!

    He ended up losing to Evgeni at the Worlds that season, I just loved this program, maybe more than his OGM-winning "The Man in the Iron Mask", so that probably means the best LP program of Alexei's for me!

    Yagudin's 2000-01 season LP:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy-pNScPA4

  4. #169
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deedee1 View Post
    I am not Toni, but since I LOOOVE this program so much, please allow me to put the link on behalf of Toni!

    He ended up losing to Evgeni at the Worlds that season, I just loved this program, maybe more than his OGM-winning "The Man in the Iron Mask", so that probably means the best LP program of Alexei's for me!

    Yagudin's 2000-01 season LP:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwy-pNScPA4
    Deedee, I am of course familiar with Yagudin's excellent Gladiator LP, but I was referring to Hallelujah as an example of music Joubert interpreted well. Since Toni claimed that Joubert can only "emote" (whatever that refers to) to music Yagudin has used before him, I decided to point out that there are examples to the contrary. AFAIK, looking at competition programs only, there is no piece of music that both Yagudin and Joubert skated to, though if you throw in exhibitions then there are a few both have skated to. Of course, considering the number of exhibitions high profile skaters do, as well as and the popularity of some choices of music, some similarity is to be expected. After all, how many Adele programs have we seen? I've seen a few Hallelujahs after Joubert's, too.

    Yags has been out of competitive skating for a decade. At some point I think the statute of limitations on using "his" music has to run out. I mean, T&D's Bolero is as iconic a program as they come, but even Bolero has long been back in circulation. Here's what KvdP had to say last season about using music that is very much identified with Yagudin:

    Why did you choose the Man in the Iron Mask soundtrack for your free program?
    My biggest example has always been Alexei Yagudin, and he still is. He skated to this music in 2002, and you have to let it rest for a few years, because people will always compare you. I always wanted to skate to it, but I decided that I'm going to do it in my last season.

    Weren't you afraid that even ten years later people would compare you?
    They will always compare. If somebody does Carmen, they will compare to Lysacek and Plushenko, on the other hand: it's called the Man in the Iron Mask, not Yagudin in the Iron Mask, so if you want to, you can use it!

  5. #170
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    Ive only ever seen, imo, Brian "get into" a program when the choreography was super similar to. Yags program. The music seems irrelevant (in some cases to both. Yags was formalic in his competitve programs much like Kwan... With footwork that was deceptively simple).

    Joubert showed a bit of promise when he worked with Kurt (in that, hey he can do other styles) but they were still rough, and skated through, imo.

    Yags does not own music, i was not implying that. But joubert has been deceived into thinking (for too long now) that its a winning style, he's playing catch up - still - within the system. It's frustratuing because he has the goods.

  6. #171
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Joubert showed a bit of promise when he worked with Kurt (in that, hey he can do other styles) but they were still rough, and skated through, imo.

    Yags does not own music, i was not implying that. But joubert has been deceived into thinking (for too long now) that its a winning style, he's playing catch up - still - within the system. It's frustratuing because he has the goods.
    Actually, I think that's just his personal style, not a persona he's tried to adopt. It's trying to turn himself into some perceived vision of an IJS-friendly skater that has been the problem for Joubert, IMO. Some skaters have a huge range of styles they can do in competition* (Savchenko/Szolkowy come to mind), but most don't, and Joubert's attempts to try new things have not generally met with the judges' approval (e.g. his 2010-11 programs), so I totally understand his staying within a certain comfort zone. Although I do feel Inception is kind of a hybrid, and combines the softer side you can sometimes see from him in galas with his more usual style.

    Regarding Yagudin - because the more charismatic/powerful/athletic style (I'm having a hard time settling on a label) that tends to characterize Joubert's skating is not all that common at the moment, and was also typical of Yagudin, the comparison is inevitable - but I don't think it's fair.

    I did love Joubert's programs with Kurt, and All For You remains my favorite SP of his.

    * I do think Joubert has shown more range with his exhibition programs.

  7. #172
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Well, Buttercup, since this is the second time you mentioned it... :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yq5xTIZJ_E

    Yes, that's my excuse.

  8. #173
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LRK View Post
    Well, Buttercup, since this is the second time you mentioned it... :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yq5xTIZJ_E

    Yes, that's my excuse.
    No, not that one! It's the one with the music deduction and he fell, you should always use the 2007 Skate Canada version... if you want any SP stuff from Worlds, I recommend the Verner-Joubert stuff in the K&C.

    I'll always mention All for You, because it was fantastic

  9. #174
    Custom Title LRK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    No, not that one! It's the one with the music deduction and he fell, you should always use the 2007 Skate Canada version... if you want any SP stuff from Worlds, I recommend the Verner-Joubert stuff in the K&C.

    I'll always mention All for You, because it was fantastic
    But it's got BESP commentary.

    ETA It's got the K&C stuff too.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Deedee, I am of course familiar with Yagudin's excellent Gladiator LP,.
    oh......deedee's shutting up its mouth and

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Can you point out to me where in the guidelines for marking transitions it says "depth of edges", "high speed", "within an acceptable amount of time from any elements" or "no toepick work"? Remember, the question is not what you consider to be transitions but what the ISU considers to be transitions.

    While most people find the TR mark a relatively object part of the components, it's interesting how vague the bullet points really are.
    It's not this but more the fact that even though the guidelines says something, in the end, you still compare the skaters. Joubert's "transitions" just worth nothing compare to Chan's. The difficulty must be involved too, if not, why bothering ? Still, Joubert's marking was closer to reality during last TEB than during lots of past competitions and he's not the only one to be overmarked.
    You can't argue about the SP because here, there's really nothing or do you think three threes and mohawks are enough for 6.86 ? Becasue that's all you can find between his elements. The LP, it's just an illusion of transitions. But that's only my opinion.
    And anyway I don't care at all about what COP horribles guidelines can say. It gave 11.86 pts for Amodio two SP falls = one clean quad. Delirious.

  12. #177
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    Lovely home video of victory ceremony: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wltsVuUzMvc
    .. and here Mura-kun is back to Japan, shining with happiness. While daddy-coach is shining too, he still mentions that on the rink is no way daddy, only a coach! www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUyNVZVOS_4

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    Lovely home video of victory ceremony: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wltsVuUzMvc
    .. and here Mura-kun is back to Japan, shining with happiness. While daddy-coach is shining too, he still mentions that on the rink is no way daddy, only a coach! www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUyNVZVOS_4
    Father and son look so much alike! Nice video, and happy for them both!

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